1017-1018：Bill Reel’出院前采访

摩门教徒的故事 纪律委员会, 驱逐出境 52条留言

Please join us now as we 面试 former Mormon Bishop and 播客er 比尔·雷尔. Bill is set to be excommunicated from the Mormon Church on November 27, 2018 at 8:30 PM. This is his pre-excommunication 面试. On November 1, 2018, Bill released an episode on his podcast 摩门教讨论 标题“荷兰长老–骗子骗子裤子着火了”他认为直接导致了他的教会领导在犹他州圣乔治采取的行动。

Previous 摩门教徒的故事面试s with Bill may be found here:

Part 1 –比尔回顾了导致他向纪律委员会传票的事件：

Part 2 –比尔审查了他收到的传票：

Part 1

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评论 52

  1. Thank you for this 面试. I have been a long time listener and subscriber to both 摩门教徒的故事and the 摩门教讨论 播客. 比尔·雷尔 has be a valuable voice within the tidy mess that is Mormon culture and I have deeply appreciated his mind and heart over the years. Thank you Bill and John for helping so many people along this lonely journey. It hurts to see the church continue to use excommunication as a means to silence the voices that don’t fit their narrative. When will they learn to stop using their authority in such damaging 办法s?

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  4. “坚持，相信，信任您的经历’已经拥有了，它将在另一边发挥作用” -Elder Holland.

    我可以’不要相信我的经历’ve had, the ground I’ve gained, especially 知道ing it is based on a half-truth whitewashed version of what happened, there is no ground gained, my experiences are then based on lies, so are they even valid experiences? 我不’t think so. In fact 我可以 replicate those feelings with great music, literature, and more. are these testimonies of 真相? or just great emotional feels i can create in my mind and body. These are Feelings not Facts. Not cool.

    我正在经历悲伤的时刻，实际上对我的架子崩溃感到伤心欲绝。我希望这是真的，我希望成为妻子希望我成为的一切。真的很遗憾在旅途中来到这里，但没有回头路可走。

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  5. 我不’不能真正理解这种将一切归咎于教会的倾向，并坐在这里，关于弟兄们如何’t have all the answers. Yeah, so what? The brethren are people with keys to perform ordinances and to be the head of an organization. It is the man upstairs that they answer to, and that we all answer to, and he does things in his own timing and in his own 办法. This is about 比尔·雷尔 placing all of his own responsibility for his own actions on the brethren. Nobody forced 比尔·雷尔 to stop believing, not even “evidence” forced 比尔·雷尔 to stop believing. The 摩尔门经 plainly tells us what state we are in in mortality, and what kind of 证据 we would be offered to 知道 the actual 真相. That doesn’并不意味着教会拥有所有答案，但这确实意味着教会’尽管仅提供了圣灵的迹象，但基本的真理主张实际上是真实的。

    Mr. Dehlin chose his own 办法, and Mr. Reel also chose what he chose for himself. Nobody forced 比尔·雷尔 to find fault with the Lord’被膏了，对他们说恶话。那是比尔·里尔（Bill Reel），他作为前任主教更加了解，但他认为他所做出的不讲邪恶和服从那些有钥匙的盟约并不重要，而他新的幻想“integrity” is more important than the 正直 that he pledged to have when he made covenants.

    比尔·雷尔也有能力通过个人启示获得他所提出问题的答案。他和弟兄们有同样的圣灵。那为什么不’比尔·赖尔（Bill Reel）得到启示，他需要知道这些事情的真相吗？他为什么要关心弟兄们是否知道这些事情？他为什么要把它放在弟兄们身上？当比尔·里尔（Bill Reel）对真实性的定义导致他的行事方式与教会成员的身份背道而驰时，为什么会觉得他有权获得教会会员资格？我不仅对这种情况没有同情。我也没有同理心，我没有’抚养那些本应该了解得更多的人，但我称之为“见识”。就像我没有’t in the case of John Dehlin. You 家伙s dug your own holes that you found yourselves in. By your own choices, you decided not to act in 办法s that would allow you to retain your membership. You can’t blame 精神ual suicide on anyone but yourself, any more than someone placing themselves in a position for physical death by cop. Your so-called authenticity is more important to you than covenants. You were told plainly how to proceed in your lives when you first 输入ed the temple, and told what covenants you were expected to keep at all hazards, regardless of anything else that was to come your 办法. You have a false belief that the Brethren should have answers to everything. Again, having the Holy Ghost makes you able to get the same answers for your own life that are available to anyone else.

    即使多年以来我都在密切注视着大家，但我仍会继续摇头。这一切都像在说你不’就像火车在轨道上快速移动，而您不 ’t like the 办法 it is going, so you are going to go get in front of the train. You set yourself up for this. In your own arrogance and your own enmity, you chose to put yourself in front of a moving train. You think that being an activist makes you authentic. What makes members of 教堂 authentic is when they keep covenants, Mr. Reel. Those are the two competing definitions of 正直 here. And you are expected to value one over the other, and make a choice. It is clear which one the Savior instructed you to choose, by 办法 of his servants.

    您如何假设主应考验您对盟约的正直性，而又不会使您处于今生的情况下，因为您无法理性地理解为什么应遵守这些盟约，您将有理由放弃这些盟约？ Reel先生，这是对您失败的死亡率的考验，我告诫您回来。您仍然有机会置身于您将要面对的法院的摆布之下，并告诉他们您将服从他们的要求。必须给您一个理性的理由，使您远离死亡的真理。否则，您将无法真正地有机会成为真理的敌人，并真正地相信那是正确的选择。成为真理之敌的任何人都必须真诚地相信他们是对的，相信你对自己已经成为的事物是真实的。您不愿意牺牲以服从弟兄们和您当地的领袖，以保持您的盟约，因为弟兄们当时’坦率的。那有多蠢？对不起，是的。

    我经历了与你们所有人一样多的信仰危机，但我也知道为什么我要理性地选择遵守我的盟约。对于您所知道的一切都是真实的事实，我也很务实。但是我也知道我如何选择务实地应对大家都选择了Reel先生的相同信息’s and Mr. Dehlin’s 办法, and it is an entirely different choice. And I make this choice with my eyes as open as any of you.

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    1. 哥布先生

      您的论点的问题是这样的：

      与摩门教徒教堂达成的任何约林先生或卷轴都是通过欺骗手段获得的，因此不具有约束力。询问埃及的Horace，Adam Clarke，Ethan Smith或无以色列DNA的数百万美国原住民。

      I’d很高兴听到您对下一个二手车推销员的反应，该推销员向您出售回落里程和改头换面的旧车。毕竟，当您答应付款时，您的感觉真是太好了，因此，他的谎言无济于事，因为您握了他的手，说了算。

      为了什么’s worth, I’d避免有人想向您推销世界’大盐湖西端最好的农田。

      祝您好运，节日快乐。

      怀疑T

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      1. 我有信仰危机。我辞去了教堂几年。当我重新激活时，发生在我身上的有趣的事情。

        重新激活后，我在家中进行了令人难以置信的窃窃私语活动。在过去的几年中，这项活动一直是我生活的一部分，并且一直持续到现在。我的床垫在凌晨2点起床时在我下面起伏。整天都在我的墙壁上大声震撼，令人难以置信，但在夜晚尤为强烈。我的门会摇晃，好像有人试图闯入我的房子，但没人在那里。一天晚上，我的妻子醒来，因为当我躺在床上时，毯子在我周围移动。好像有一个实体在我的身体周围移动，导致我们的毯子移动了。椅子会移动和旋转。我什至有时坐下时，下面的地板会移动并弯曲。

        I’ve had so much paranormal activity happen to me that it has fundamentally changed my outlook on the world. There is definitely a 精神 world, and it became agitated when I changed my activity level in the church.

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    2. 埃德

      你问为什么’比尔·里尔（Bill Reel）向圣灵寻求这些问题的答案。那简直就是’t 跟随 the pattern put forth by the church because Bill’这些问题本质上是笼统的，根据LDS原则，只有总统才能获得整个教会的启示。它’s not in church’的计划，使比尔获得有关我们的先知，先知和启示者为何与未成年人和其他男人结婚的答案’的妻子，或者为什么FP和Qo12几十年来一直在黑人和神职人员方面犯错，以及为什么这些相同的领导人粉饰了我们的历史并向会员传授了一半真相。

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    3. 噢，高德（ED GOBLE），我多次阅读您的评论，试图了解您的来历，我确实认为，当您指着比尔·雷尔（Bill Reel）和约翰·德林（John Dehlin）时，您需要注意指向自己的三个手指。你说“我像大家一样睁大眼睛做出这个选择”但是你的评论不’似乎不符合该说法。我在你的陈述中看到的只是关于对弟兄们的服从。“摆在法庭上…顺应他们的要求” “您不愿牺牲奉献给弟兄们和地方领导人”。你的意思是屈服于其他人。我的意思是真的吗？加油！你说没什么要屈服于基督或上帝。我求求你ED对此认真考虑。它说了很多关于教会的事。

      最后，仅因为您认为自己拥有或知道“truth”并不意味着你可以打电话给其他人“the enemy of 真相”叫他们笨你说你很务实，但宗教信仰却没有’真的很务实。再一次，这听起来就像您在叫其他人都傻。这就是为什么双眼紧闭的原因，因为“know”关于所有问题的信息，并且显然无法看到并验证双方。

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    4. 嗨Ed：）

      我的名字’亚伦。非常感谢您分享您的感受；我认为那里有很大的深度。当我意识到只有三种类型的业务时，我发现了真正的持久和平：

      （1）我的生意
      （2）神’s business
      （3）其他民族’ business

      …。而我唯一可以控制的业务就是我自己的业务。多年后，我意识到其他人将永久地说话，相信并做与我在这个世界上珍贵的价值观和信念相反的事情，即使是对我而言是神圣的，但不受它影响的事情对我来说却变得非常强大。

      God be with you and your family and loved ones. I 知道 He lives.

      你的朋友，
      亚伦

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  6. 那么，声称从上帝那里得到启示的教会没有答案吗？ Bednar可以说耶稣出生于特定的日期（超过2000年前），但他们对200年前发生的事情没有任何答案。

    对于他们来说不幸的是，对于所有令人不安的细节，如今很容易研究出很多答案。告诉那些提出难题的人没有答案，这对于一个经常说他们拥有所有答案的教会来说并不好。我想他们只会为没有问题的人提供答案。

    Of all the historical discrepancies and practices of the church, there is one that they 跟随 and it has been passed down from Smith, and that is obedience and loyalty to the organization. It is not about enlightenment today nor was it in Smith’s day.

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  7. 理查德·布什曼（Richard Bushman）在《粗石轧制》中说过“彼得，詹姆斯和约翰是人为活动吗？”我检查了对它们的所有引用，似乎理查德·布什曼（Richard Bushman）讲着约瑟夫（Joseph）报道的故事。

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  8. 埃德·戈布尔: it’像你这样的人，你的傲慢，自以为是，居高临下–越来越多的人被赶出“the Church”！哎呀，您一定是感恩节上的绝对快乐。真是一匹马’s ass!

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      1. I 知道 of no other institution that requires it members to make life long promises without actually 知道ing in advance what the promises are and only are given the chance to walk away before they 知道 what they are, That’是一种强制性的手段。

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  9. Thank you 左手传送带55. 埃德·戈布尔, you truly are living in your own self righteous mind bubble. The Church is a fraud. The Church is clearly an organization making billions of dollars off ignorant, naive individuals. The Church does not want people learning of their deception. They want members to keep quiet and pay their tithing and then they can be apart of their club. Once you’re out, it really all seems so 愚蠢 (99 percent of the world has NO interest in Mormonism and thinks of it as a cult). The part that is difficult is when someone is born into this religion and then learns the 真相. They want to live authentic lives and question what they’ve been told their whole lives because they are hurt and confused but are then shunned by people they love. That’s the sad part.

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    1. 在我看来，唯一的是“silly”当你与盟约宣誓向天上的上帝宣誓时，要远离盟约，以免一切危险，不惜一切代价。您会记得圣经中人们对人们的重视程度“swearing” to do something in the Old Testament. This is precisely the thing people are walking away from when they walk away from 教堂 , and there will be consequences. They are all welcome to do whatever they want with their agency, and be as authentic as they want to be in their own 办法. They are not immune from being able to be criticized by people who have a brain and who disagree with them, who see things entirely differently from them, but who have been through the same type of experiences as them. If they can criticize the 办法 other people live and are, then they ought to be able to stomach the same thing they can dish out. Just like how Rosebud is holding Dehlin to the same standards that he wants to hold the LDS hierarchy to! I presume that all of you 跟随 Rosebud? Let’让Dehlin先生直接回答她的指控。

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  10. 好吧，戈贝尔先生，对于初学者来说，您声称经历了自己的信仰危机并且仍然相信。
    您如何提供有关您选择要处理的正在讨论的“务实”和“睁大眼睛”方法的一些详细信息？

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    1. 霍格布雷斯，你怎么样专注于我所说的，而不是我。

      其次，我留下的这一说法并非摩门教徒。“Do not seek to 跟随 in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.” — Matsuo Basho

      我是否想追随那个人约瑟夫·史密斯，并为他的个人生活中失败的地方以及领导者失败的地方挂上电话？还是我寻求他所追求的，并遵循“way”在东方宗教中道的意义上，他留下来接受他所得到的？我是专注于他的失败，还是我务实地专注于仅仅由他作为管道传递给我们的东西。我问我现在同样的问题“follow”罗素·纳尔逊（Russell M. Nelson）睁大了眼睛。我要寻找独立于罗素·纳尔逊（Russel M. Nelson）的什么？答案是与之相关的高尚礼遇。这就是我要的。需要什么？保持圣约，成为圣殿，在圣殿中成功，如实地回答圣殿，向他们推荐问题，并继续服务并做对我的要求，并忠诚。对我来说，这并不是一件难事，因为我一生都在努力。罗素·纳尔逊（Russell M. Nelson）’的失败或约瑟夫·史密斯’s for that matter get in the 办法 of my ability to make choices for my own behavior to keep my own covenants? They do not. This is pragmatic. You think the 摩尔门经 is false. I say it is true, because the Holy Ghost told me so. You say feelings are not good indicators of 真相. Maybe so. I say that I 知道 this from signs from the Holy Ghost independent of feelings. I 知道 what I must do pragmatically and independently of any other creature, and independently of the failings of the organization. Literally, the organization is like a flag that I salute to, not an organization that I must focus on as if it is the end all and be all of everything. Very little is required of me to be loyal. And for one thing, not being a bitter jackass that is against 教堂 is the first and biggest secret.

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    2. 我猜想这并没有’不会被发布，所以这是我的最后答复，因为我已经说过我的职位，您可以选择保留或保留该职位。
      Matsu Basho, the great Japanese Philosopher said that we ought not to 跟随 necessarily in the footsteps of the wise, but to seek what they sought.
      What do I seek? I seek what 约瑟·史密斯 sought, and if his 办法 that he left behind of ordinances and authority and organization helps me to get what he sought, I will submit myself to that system. In other words, I valued what was conveyed by 约瑟·史密斯. I value what is conveyed by 办法 of Russel M. Nelson from heaven. 我不’从他们的人为因素的角度去关心他们所做的事情或他们所说的话。因此，我是我的耶稣基督后期圣徒教会的正统派，并且保持自己的状态，使我能够顺利通过圣殿推荐面试。我相信摩尔门经和亚伯拉罕经书的历史性，是因为圣灵的迹象，而不是因为约瑟夫·史密斯’的失败。我不是依靠圣灵的感觉，而是依靠圣灵的迹象。有所不同，但约翰·德林（John Dehlin）会让您相信，感觉并不是事实的可靠指标。确实，当它们不是标志时，它们就不是。因此，我的行为非常正统，我对基本真理主张的信念非常正统，但是在与“mysteries.”我重视有关投机和教会传统的神秘领域的研究和个人启示。我不相信任何人对“mysteries”是有价值的，是高是低，除非我个人发现它对我有价值。我是一个“Transhumanist,”但不是林肯大炮品种。我相信“spirit”是科学称之为的一些东西“dark matter”因为它通常在默认状态下无法通过电磁相互作用检测到。

      //www.space.com/21508-dark-matter-atoms-disks.html

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  11. 为了自己的辩护而被迫签署保密协议以便进入纪律委员会，这是在胁迫下提出的一项要求。在这方面，它变得无效，而您违反该协议的权利也可以在民事法院受到质疑并获得胜诉。

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  12. 埃德·戈布尔, I would agree that a great deal of emphasis is placed on the brethren needing to 知道 all the answers… As someone who is a 5th generation mormon who has moved away from the system, I see how difficult it is to believe that the men at the head of this church can be so vehement in their belief in the face of all the 证据 that it is not what it purports to be. I personally don’t see the need to go down the road of church discipline, just resign and move on already!!
    话虽如此，您似乎忽略了比尔提出的明显问题… one being –霍兰德先生说谎吗？是的，您宽恕了这一点，是否应该因为他是教会的领袖而被忽视？不应该对他负责。教会是否隐藏了以下真相：约瑟·斯密（Joseph Smith）错误地翻译了《亚伯拉罕书》？是的，这对您来说不是问题吗？教会是否混淆了BOM转换方法的事实？是的，这对您来说不是问题吗？教会是种族主义者吗？是的，它是否试图取消他们在种族和圣职上的地位？是的，这对您来说不是问题吗？我可以继续…我的观点是，声称这些人是上帝的召唤者，并被授予执行命令的权力和权限，这是您基于您被认为是神格成员而受到的情感感觉所依据的观点。我从神格的同一位成员那里得到了确认，他们不是他们所说的那个人，我根据新发现的证据向上帝提出了问题，并在怀里被烧死，向我证实了这一点。有趣吗？无论如何，我个人不会浪费时间或精力与不了解事实的领导人交往…祝你好运，比尔，希望这是值得的！祝您埃德·格布勒（Ed Goble）祝你好运…

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  13. 埃德·戈布尔,
    我对您如何回应有疑虑和疑问的人非常感兴趣。我喜欢J. Golden Kimball的话。他说：“我经常想知道您何时拥有上帝的灵。我曾经以为自己在南方各州都感到兴奋，当我变得兴奋和激动时，我的脸红了，脖子的脐带肿了-那时，我无知地认为那是圣灵。自从我学会了神的灵赐给你欢乐，和平与耐心，长期忍受和温柔之后，你就有了宽恕的精神，你爱着人类子孙的灵魂”（《会议报告》，1918年10月，p 29）。您是否愿意透露自己的年龄？我出生于1954年。我成长为始终对真理持开放态度，无论其来源如何，从不害怕提出问题，并为自己认为正确的事情大声疾呼。我现在在教会里肯定不是那种感觉。我记得爱电影“多么稀有”，讲述一位天主教神父在燃烧桶中发现一本没有封面的摩尔门经。他没有’t 知道 the name of the book but preached to his congregation from it. Leaders became concerned with his preaching and told him to cease preaching from the strange book or be excommunicated. He chose to continue teaching from the book and they carried out their threat. The message was loud and clear to me: we should stand for what we feel is right and let the consequence 跟随. I miss the feeling I once had in 教堂 of being able to question freely and have open dialogue and 跟随 what I felt was the Spirit. Missionary work was uplifting when I was totally open to 真相, wherever it could be found. Thank you, 摩门教徒的故事, for bringing back that feeling of being able to question, have open and healthy discussions, and being transparent!!!

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    1. 加思先生

      我快40岁了’s. 我不’t 知道 what you think your point is, but I suspect that like so many others, you think that you can be a judge of my character, and bring the focus on to me. You think that you should stand for what you feel is right, and let the consequence 跟随. So be it. I am a man of passion, and it is a 知道n personality flaw in my being that all 知道 that I have who 知道 me well, and that passion shows when I make my stand. You can say whatever you want about that, but I do 知道 where I stand. If my presentation of when I make my stand is wanting because of a lack of perfection in me, my position that I take is not wanting. And I will continue to make it 知道n when I see a need. I make absolutely no apology for where I stand, and I say it how I say it with the passion that is in me without apology as well.

      您说您对我如何与有顾虑和问题的个人打交道感兴趣。当我与人打交道时，我是一个冷静的人。当我站出来时，我就做到了，并确保人们知道我是认真的人。对于那些仅仅因为我的人格缺陷而认为他们可以忽略我所说的话的人，我没有耐心。先生，这就是所谓的Ad Hominem。而且，先生是您在此处犯下的逻辑上的谬误。因此，坚持事实真相，裁掉指出人格缺陷的指点。

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  14. 当我为孩子们施洗时，荷兰’s flaws have nothing to do with whether God recognizes the authority that enables the performance of that Baptism. What matters is whether I keep my covenants, which I have personally sworn to do. Holland has no effect on whether I personally make a choice to be faithful to what I have been told to do. Holland has to answer to Jesus Christ like anyone else. I am into this for getting through this life unscathed 精神ually if 我可以, and I am primarily responsible for the 精神ual welfare of myself and my own family. I am not the one that Holland has to answer to. You ask whether I condone it or should overlook it. I say it is as unimportant to the grand scheme of my personal eternity, because it is not my problem. It is Holland’s problem. Holland will be punished for his own transgressions if he does not repent, as will the rest of mankind. Holland can take that up with Jesus Christ, and so can you, if you think it is important, or should be dealt with. Should I look the other 办法 because Holland may have lied? I say that it is not my problem. It’s Holland’的问题。而且，如果我坐在这里专心研究，那会很愚蠢。自从Bill Reel成为Bill Reel以来’的问题，现在，比尔·雷尔（Bill Reel）将承担后果。我说Bill Reel应该离开荷兰’对荷兰和耶稣基督的问题。

    In other words, I say it is irrelevant to my personal eternity, so 我不’t care about it, because as a pragmatist, there is nothing 我可以 do about it, nor do I care to. 我不’对荷兰不感兴趣’s personal sins. I only care that Holland is a conduit of the Holy Ghost when the Holy Ghost chooses to use him that 办法. That’s all I care about, because that is what I profit from. Otherwise, 我不’不管荷兰说什么或做什么。如果您关心它，那么可以炖它。你有你的代理商。

    I only care about what 我可以 profit from for my personal eternity. That’s what I’m into this for. And if 我可以 help other people stay on the path where they will not commit 精神ual suicide because of stupid stuff that has nothing to do with them personally, then that is a good thing.

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  15. 加思
    谢谢您让我想起那部美丽的电影。
    您恰恰指出了困扰我数十年的谬论，那就是：为什么我们应该提出的任何问题都会威胁到上帝应有的地位？如果有这样的存在，相较之下，与成年人类相比，我们要年轻得多，发展水平也要低得多。想象一下，用赞美诗的话，不管我们是错误的还是错误的，这位上帝都会为寻求真理而惩罚我们其中一个人，“makes reason stare”. It is a human kind of response, to shush a younger, less 知道ledgeable human who asks a startling question, not a godlike one. The response to silence another is based on fear. 从定义上讲，上帝，就象教会神学向我们展示的那样一种崇高，慈爱，明智的存在，远超出这种可怕的嘘声。

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  16. “在沙特阿拉伯，我们的领导是一条红线。两个圣清真寺（萨勒曼国王）和王储的保管人是一条红线，”朱比尔告诉英国广播公司。
    “他们代表每个沙特公民，每个沙特公民都代表他们。我们绝不容忍任何贬低我们君主或王储的事情的讨论

    听起来有点熟—-“在摩门教教堂，我们的领导是一条红线”.

    //www.yahoo.com/news/crown-prince-red-line-khashoggi-probe-saudi-fm-230231092.html

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  17. 哇，安妮，谢谢！一世’我将保存您的回复，因为您’如此简单而精美地表达了它！您的回应对我来说是感恩节的奇迹！

    And to 埃德·戈布尔,
    非常感谢您的回复！另一个奇迹！我确实想对您可能冒犯您的内容表示歉意。一世’在过去的20年中，我一直在认真地探索我的信仰之旅。那段时间我’曾担任主教6年，担任神学院教师3年，为教会服务传教士’的成瘾恢复和家庭支持小组为期3年。

    正如安妮如此优美地表达，“从定义上讲，上帝，就象教会神学向我们展示的那样一种崇高，慈爱，明智的存在，远超出这种可怕的嘘声。”生活在“fearful shushing”为我一直窒息。我的担心是要伤害一个快乐且对证词完全满意的人。当我冒险进行讨论时，围墙上升，肾上腺素进入血液，战斗，飞行或冻结模式开始，我成为“evil-one”谁在质疑我的信仰！对我来说不是一个健康的环境！一世 ’m seeking a community where questioning in a nonjudgemental environment is the key to 精神ual growth. In my 64 years in 教堂 , the most healthy and safe environment for nonjudgemental dialogue was when my wife and I served in the Addiction Recovery program. (I still am very cautious and intentional with what I say to my wife and children and grandchildren. I have learned where that line is.) Although the conversations are not deep, the other healthy place where I am currently serving is with my wife in the Nursery.

    埃德·戈布尔, you may be an answer to my prayers and meditations. I long for conversations with true believing members who can truly listen without running the risk that what I say may send them into a state of losing their testimony. For me, I want to have conversations that can bring me more “truth and light.”如果有，我欢迎您！

    带给我和平的范例正在尽我所能对所有想法持开放态度，即使这意味着改变。一世’m sure you’re a very intelligent individual and 我不’t want to imply that my age makes me wiser, but if there is one thing that I have learned in my 64 years on the planet is that being human opens me up to all kinds of emotions, both positive and negative. For me, 精神ual growth happens when 我可以 quiet my mind and be in that observant state of non-judgement and explore my beliefs.

    摩门教徒故事（Mormon Stories），谢谢，谢谢，感谢您为健康和安全的对话创建了一个安全的地方！

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  18. C’mon Bill you don’t really need him to send you the 证据 ahead of time. We all obviously 知道 why you are going to a disciplinary council…

    You didnt change your podcast name quick enough to “Members of 教堂 of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints discussions podcast” 😉

    但是，在所有的兄弟中，我都希望对您和您的家人有最好的帮助。我是教会的信徒。我得出的结论与您明显得出的结论不同，但是我一直很感谢您的播客，声音以及您提供的研究和背景。很抱歉，您和您的家人遭受了如此重重的痛苦，很抱歉，教会中的许多人对您的待遇不佳。另一方面，我理解为什么很多成员感到受到您的威胁。人们在感到威胁时会表现得最糟。对不起，您是他们恐惧的目标。

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    1. I’和你迈克在同一条船上
      比尔帮助我细化了我的信念。

      它仍然有很多不完美的人，它仍然是我喜欢的社区。
      I 知道 the church doesn’不适合所有人，睁开眼睛很有帮助。

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  19. 埃德·戈布尔,
    Are you still out there? As I mentioned previously, in my experience, when I ask my questions to an active member it puts them into a fight-flight-or-freeze mode and I go into silence mode out of respect because 我不’不想伤害他们。您，埃德·戈贝尔（Ed Gobel），是我祈祷的答案！！！您以前的答复表明，我无话可说会损害您的证词。您可能会找到我想要的答案。这是我们可以进行对话的论坛吗？如果读者对此感到厌倦，则可以在必要时找到一个新论坛。你有什么感想？

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  20. 加思
    I appreciated that you heard my words in a good 办法.
    另外，请允许我对这个播客表示感谢。一世’在过去的一年中，我一直在网上四处寻找，希望找到一个康复的，深思熟虑的论坛，以便与其他信仰正在发生巨大变化的人建立联系。这是我的第一名’ve found that provides a bit of that. So, amen! Thank you John, Margi, and every person who supports this podcast in any 办法.

    回复
    1. 发布
      作者

  22. Since I listened to the 面试s from the Mattsson’s（984-985）我有这种感觉：耶和华也将一些出色的领袖带出教会，对于那些无法进入教会的人，因此，前摩门教徒也有一些和平的爱人领袖，

    自90年代以来’领袖告诉各成员不要与基督本人接触，因为他太忙于与先知建立联系，最好不要被基督所打扰。‘simple members – minds’。耶稣走出教堂，从一间没有’t want to have Him as a Leader. There he saw He needed good leaders for the flock that still 跟随ed Him in the open fields.

    因此，弟兄和马特森修女被送往教堂外，照看他的羊！他还把约翰·德林带入自己的组织，因为约翰·比尔·里尔（John 比尔·雷尔）可以和全世界的许多人接触，并向其他领导人发出声音。

    现在耶稣想要比尔加入他的组织，所以，他让兄弟将他驱逐出境，因为他们不’在他们的教会里不应该有这么好诚实的人。

    Now Jesus has a huge flock of 跟随ers outside the Mormon Church and He loves them and takes care of them !

    教会的领导人现在声称这个名字：后期圣徒耶稣基督教堂。如果他们想要这个标题是为了真实，而不仅仅是误导，那么他们首先必须更正他们在90年代讲的话’s that members should not seek personal contact with Jesus, and stop standing between the members and whom they truly should 跟随: Jesus Christ ! If the leaders do correct this error, and start pointing the members toward Jesus, maybe also the insight might arise that they should stop being puppets from patriarchy and become real 跟随ers of Christ and turn also the organisation into a Christ-like place !

    我感到领导者正忙于使船转向正确的方向。我将密切关注这一发展，并希望当教会完全成为耶稣基督时会感到高兴’s church again !

    In the meantime Jesus takes care of His flock in the fields and will keep on going taking leaders away from the organisation, till the Leaders finally will realise that all the true 跟随ers of Christ are outside the wall of their church. Just only when the organisation becomes Christlike again, Jesus’s flock in the fields will return to the church and show in that 办法 that the church is a Christ -worthy church again. Untill than, Jesus takes care of those who are too honest and sincere to lie inside the church and rather be outside and are true 跟随ers of Jesus Christ, including the contact with Him through prayer and an sincere heart !

    Bill，在露天领域中需要您，就像需要John一样，Mattssons和所有其他在摩门教徒故事上发表演讲或发表回应或对离开教堂的人表示支持和衷心关注的人。领袖是人，有过错，但是耶稣总是时刻关注着我们当中最小的那些人！靠近他，你并不孤单，我们在这里与你同在！

    和平，
    Mw。阿德里·德·琼
    荷兰人

    回复

    1. 嗨阿德里，

      Are there examples of 教堂 telling members not to seek contact with Christ? I 知道 that this has been a big part of the culture, but 我不’t remember or haven’没看到它被直接教导。一世’d。希望阅读一些资源以更好地理解在会议，少尉等课程中关于该主题的神学知识。谢谢！

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      1. 嗨，彼得，

        I had not heard about it, until learned about it in one of the 面试s here on 摩门教徒的故事.

        后来，我在这里读到了某人的评论，我参加了一个我认为是BYU的会议，在该会议上使徒发表了讲话，并告诉听众他们不应该’寻求与耶稣基督的个人接触。

        我希望分享此信息的人阅读我们的评论，并再次告诉我们他/她听到的内容。

        This is where I got it from. 我不’t 知道 if it ever had been in the Ensign etc, but that would be interesting, too, to 知道.

        和平，
        阿德里·德·琼
        荷兰人

        回复

          2. 是的！谢谢DS，我想在阅读后做出反应，但是时间太长了！

            It was even in 1982, that declares to me why some people in the church were hesitant to be willing to hear from my 精神ual experiences. I thought that should be normal to share, since 约瑟·史密斯 gave his good example with The 第一愿景, but I was told not to talk about it. It was one of the stones that were laid in the pavement leading me out of the church.

            It’麦康基长老说的话很矛盾：他将成员指向耶稣，但声称不需要与耶稣有关系。事实圣灵是最重要的联系对象。我没有’尚未阅读全部内容，因此，在提出错误的陈述之前，我’d我以后反应更好’ve finished it !

            现在，我也非常感谢您的帮助！

            和平，
            阿德里·德·琼
            荷兰人

  23. 我对Bill Reel的播客完全没问题。但是，我对寻求seeking道的关注turned之以鼻，他们发表了教堂法院在何时何地将其变成受害者的景象。如果不相信教堂的租户，甚至上教堂法庭都是完全不合逻辑的。如果我被召唤到开除开庭听证会并把信扔掉，我会大笑。

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  24. 埃德·戈布尔……您在这里表现出的思维定势是不正确的。作为前信奉教会的信徒和前任分会主席，我注意到随着时间的流逝，我对耶稣的印象和印象已改变为恐惧，权力和权威之一….this is what the church emphasizes in many obvious (temple covenants for eg) and subtle 办法s…我更喜欢我现在重新获得的充满爱心，同情的形象。在表达“对你的盟约的责任” that we took on, as you do here, and using threatening words to those no longer living those covenants, is all fear based and sums up so much of how the church presents devotion and commitment. No true 精神ual pursuit needs to be based on fear.
    但是，如果您想在自己的心态中证明自己有理由摆脱所提到的盟约………前LDS负责人欣克利总统确实公开声明说”如果没有实现第一个愿景，那我们就陷入了一场大骗局”。有这么多挂…it’有趣的是，这不是教会早期形成的一部分…besides, there’至少有4个版本，JS分别进行了更改和修饰…这样的经历将烙印在您的心灵中，永远不会改变或受到怀疑。
    显然，那里’s a problem here, and if reasonable members come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the first vision, then 跟随ing President Hinckleys own words, it’完全可以理解的是” sham”他陈述的一面。
    在那种情况下，如果一个人真的相信异象存在问题，那么所立的任何盟约都是无效的，毫无意义的。

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  25. 如果您不相信他们给您的故事，那么您相信什么故事。在您的实际信仰中，最高的神殿或男孩在多大程度上发挥了有效的作用。

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  26. 爱你们！再次感谢你们双方愿意将自己的脖子摆在脖子上，成为真理的声音，也为我们中那些无法拥有自己的声音而能够被公众听到的声音或已确认。您给我们许多人的面孔和确认，他们因为失去了信仰而在我们的一生中花了很多时间感到无形和卑鄙。这意味着你甚至还没有意识到的世界。祝您和您的家人幸福。

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  27. This is a very good episode, however, one caution speaking about 荷兰长老as being Bipolar is disrespectful to those who are suffering with a mental illness, perhaps another term would be more appropriate.

    回复

    1. 桑德拉– I struggle with OCD and do not find it disrespectful when others discuss symptoms/behaviors related to anxiety-related struggles. The intention is to understand behaviors; if someone is bipolar, they need to 知道 in order to get the right medication and gain stability. People understand when someone is belittling and when they are describing a condition.

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  28. 埃德·戈布尔,

    你说：“That was 比尔·雷尔 who 知道s better as a former Bishop, but who decided that the covenant that he made to not speak evil and to obey those with the keys was unimportant, and his new fangled sense of “integrity” is more important than the 正直 that he pledged to have when he made covenants.”

    那里有很多批评’s hard to find where to start. So let me begin with a self-evident 真相: Lying and violence go hand-in-hand.

    散布谎言的人会毫不犹豫地用暴力保护自己的谎言。犯下暴力的人会毫不犹豫地用谎言保护自己的暴力。耶稣本人肯定了两者之间的这种联系（约翰福音8:44）。

    摩门教圣殿神学和仪式的问题在于它们植根于暴力和谎言中。如果您在1990年之前获得了捐赠，那是在摩门教教堂删除其仪式中的宣誓誓言和其他共济元素的情况下，您就会知道我在说什么。在共济会上，如果他泄露了他同意保密的共济会誓言，那么同修就宣誓放弃他的生命。约瑟夫·史密斯（Joseph Smith）窃了共济会这些仪式的某些内容，这是共济会本身众所周知的事实。他复制的那些要素中包括一个男人的想法。’牺牲他的誓言使他的一生值得牺牲。

    为了保守秘密，共济会或摩门教徒的圣殿誓言值得杀人吗？你回答我。

    这些共济会主义和1990年前的摩门教徒宣誓的问题在于，他们要么认真对待他们明确说的话，要么’t. If they aren’t，那么他们就应该因为自己的废话和荒诞而暴露。

    但是，如果他们是认真的，那么我们就盯着某种不正当的东西：谁决定以泥瓦匠或摩门教徒为生，因为他们泄露了这些秘密的圣殿誓言，就是谋杀罪。宣誓就职的人实际上是杀人犯。教bet并扶持凶手的人将被判犯有同样的罪行。还记得扫罗成为保罗吗？他不必扔石头杀死第一个基督教烈士斯蒂芬。他只拿着那些谋杀他的人的衣服。

    在尊重一个人的尊严的公民社会中，任何人都不能合法地订立一项其同意谋杀自己的合同。此类合同一开始就被视为无效或无效。合同的意图以及如何执行合同涉及犯罪。通过这些要素，此类合同仅在罪犯中发现。如果世俗的法律不遵守’不允许一个人同意谋杀，为什么上帝的高等律法会有所不同？“Thou shall not kill”仍然是耶稣自己从未撤销的有效诫命。摩门教徒的礼节忽视了上帝的这一基本诫命，这清楚地表明，其神学与耶稣或圣灵无关。

    共济会之一’s biggest lie is the claim that its rituals go all the 办法 back to King Solomon’的神庙。约瑟夫·史密斯和他的同时代人相信了这个谎言。他们相信共济会’礼节是真正的祭司礼节的败笔。因此，在创建摩门教徒的捐赠时，早期的摩门教徒认为史密斯正在恢复所罗门王所失去的一切’s次。不幸的是，那个谎言被揭穿了。共济会的仪式不超过17世纪。他们不’不要回到所罗门’s era.

    That 约瑟·史密斯 miserably failed to detect this blatant masonic deception is an excellent example of the blind 跟随ing the blind. If Smith really wanted to 知道 what went on inside Solomon’s temple, all he had to do was open his Bible. The rituals are all described there in great detail. He need not swallow the lies of freemasonry. But instead of 跟随ing God’s 真相 in the scriptures, he chose to 跟随 men’在他们的秘密密室里的谎言。约瑟·斯密（Joseph Smith）怎样才能带您了解真相？他可以’t。他已经和他的盲目的共济会向导一起掉入了沟渠。

    的确，他和戈登·欣克利（Dorlin Oaks）和戈登·欣克利（Dallin Oaks）一样，后者无论马克·霍夫曼（Mark Hoffman）喂食它们，都吞下钩子，绳索和坠子。正如您在霍夫曼（Hoffman）的伪造传奇中所看到的那样，从事欺骗的人从不犹豫地犯下谋杀罪。

    说谎和暴力并存。摩门教圣殿内部传播的谎言只能通过暴力威胁来维持。通过提醒比尔·雷尔（Bill Reel），约翰·德林（John Dehlin）和其他逃脱了摩门教圣殿内部的谎言和威胁的人，您参与了使这些谋杀性威胁保持生命的活动。

    而且请不要’t say Smith’圣灵的工作。您应该知道，对耶稣的亵渎可以原谅您，而亵渎圣灵则不能。除非你为此悔改，否则即使在来世也不能赦免罪过。记住“fruits of the Spirit”（加拉太书5:22）？当您饱受共济会的谎言并因泄露圣殿秘密而遭到谋杀威胁时，爱，喜悦，和平，耐心，仁慈，善良和忠诚在哪里？他们不’t exist in any meaningful 办法.

    If murder and lying go hand in hand (John 8:44) then its opposites are likewise true: Love and 真相 go hand in hand: “Charity rejoices not in iniquity, but in the 真相”（哥林多前书13：6）。仔细考虑这些经文。让他们照亮你的道路。对于走下去的人来说，灭亡之路从来都不是显而易见的。

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  29. 马特森：“佩里长老，请问您答应向我们展示所有答案的书，我可以看看吗？”

    佩里长老：“Don’t be impertinent!”走开，拿着公文包，仍然关闭。

    真实的故事。

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  31. 加思– If you are still 跟随ing this conversation (I’m late to the game) then I would be happy to have a dialogue with you. I’m a very faithful believer who is aware of much of the controversial history. In short, I will not run or be afraid of any questions you would ask. I’m always hesitant to join any of these online comment sections because I believe individuals (myself included) or more likely to phrase their questions/comments in a 办法 that can too easily be taken as offensive. However, personal interaction is much less likely to take that route. Let me 知道 if you’re interested.

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  32. 您说的是约瑟夫·史密斯（Joseph Smith）启示而不是翻译的《摩尔门经》（Mormon）出版过程的名称？伪……? 我可以’t find that term.

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  33. 荷兰长老“is”骗子，骗子，着火的裤子。看看他的PBS“interview”关于该隐教义的诅咒。他的举止好像他真的不是’不熟悉该学说，所以他不’不知道该说些什么！实际上，从他出生那天起，荷兰就被教导该隐教义的诅咒。他曾在CES上任职，而教堂仍在公开地教授它。他读“教会与黑人”1970年担任华盛顿西雅图研究所所长。这本书由约翰·隆德（John Lund）撰写，除了早期教会领袖和布鲁斯·麦康基（Bruce R. McConkie）的名言外，几乎什么都没有。荷兰读“Mormon Doctrine”布鲁斯·麦康基（Bruce R. McConkie）于1978年之前的版本清楚地将《该隐教义的诅咒》讲解为“教会学说”. Holland is a “Liar for the Lord”这个毋庸置疑。而且，他是第三位成为“Living Prophet”. He’是一个新的保罗·邓恩。他’是一个新的欣克利。这个家伙撒谎没有问题“保护教会的形象”. No problem at all.

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