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  1. Great conversation. When 约翰 was talking about the humble version of science (ie, the non-Dawkins, Hitchens version) it reminded me of this short clip from Chomsky:

    //www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Q4F5yf2D8

    这还涉及您还涉及的许多其他主题:信仰有用吗?科学探究的局限性是什么?

  2. 担’对政治上正确的语言的痴迷使这次采访大为改观。我会很感激有人指出一些常用的单词和语言,但是有时候约翰只是按原样说些事情,而在访谈中总是指出单词的使用时间似乎很浪费时间’t padded/sugar coated. And, it is also a waste of time in a podcast to always have to give all of the context, possibilities, and meanings (especially when they have already been talked about in previous episodes) whenever you are going to say or explain something. These podcasts are already pretty long, adding all of that sugar coating might make them listenable to lots of people. That 担 kept attacking 约翰’一遍又一遍的语言也使他自己的立场显得相当不安全。

    1. 这部分是我面试的最后一根稻草。任何其他试图做约瑟夫的事情都会被称为欺诈。约瑟夫获得通过的原因是因为他’s the prophet of “15 million” people.

      我看到的人越多“Fowler 5” the more I 真实ize I’我没有足够的灵活性来做这种体操。

      在讨论过程中,我不得不将其关闭。

      1. I had a 真 hard time make it through the interview from this point too. It reminds me a bit about a few 年份 ago when the media was trying to give equal and fair representation to anti-vaxxers in vaccination debates. Just because it’相反的观点没有’t表示它应享有相同的时间/待遇。与教学创造与学校发展一样。现实是,我们可以达成有根据的共识,实际上记录是什么。记录很清楚–约翰讲得很好。因为您有关于欺诈性文件的精神提示’使文件成真– it’s still 舞弊ulent.

        Also, I was trouble so much my 担’s说(有时似乎‘bragging’)他是福勒’在第5阶段进入第4阶段,现在很多事情’似乎没什么大不了的。好吧’s great if you’是一位白人,男性,舒适,受过良好教育的特权成员。如果您更多,这实际上可能是一件大事‘vulnerable’在教育,人际关系,性行为等方面。实际上可能会危在旦夕。我想你可以’不明白吗?约翰’当您一生都在努力时,这些细节确实很重要’真理的目的和道路。

        I have a nagging feeling that 担 will someday 真实ize this.

        约翰, I wanted to stand up and applaud you a few times. Keep speaking plainly. It’s very much needed.

        1. That was awesome and painful all at the same time. 约翰 has come so far! It has been so amazing observing him the last few 年份 and I’m proud of him and what he is doing. The painful part was 担’的心理体操和认知失调。哇,我相信有一天真相会打击他。如果发生的话,我们都会为您服务。

      2. 史蒂夫, I had to turn it off too about 2/3 through. As hard as this was to listen to, I feel like it was even harder for 担 and 约翰 to do this type of interview because who wants to acknowledge the positives of staying LDS when the 真实 harm is brought up at the same time? And who wants to make a long-time friend super uncomfortable in the process? Lastly, who wants to do this all publicly? It took guts for both of them to do this interview in my opinion.

        我只是不能 ’t continue listening because it was too painful for me. It brought up too many experiences I have seen or had over the 年份 that were heartbreaking. I understand loyalties to your own personal lived experience but when those loyalties trump 真 acknowledging other people’截然不同的有效生活经历—使自己更快乐/ ok /和平,让自己的思想更加轻松自在—我认为这种思考和生活方式确实可以减轻他人的痛苦和有效性’ lived experiences and that is what I was 真 hearing from 担 in this interview.

        对我来说就可以’归属于那些您主动忽略有效的人类苦难的事物,这才是真正的和平或真正的幸福—过去和现在。老实说,教会也许太教条主义,威胁着一个人不要忽视坏处,以确保自己在安全地带安全,但对我而言,这可以’不能给一个人带来一生的安宁或幸福。

  3. FYI to be fair: Hitchens, Dawkins, and Harris never made the claims 约翰 implied – they have exactly the 细微的 belief that disproving God is impossible, and if new evidence comes in for a belief in God they will consider it.

  4. 哎呀…哦,我的天哪!摩门教徒的快速外流与缓慢外流使我完全不舒服。我从事销售工作。有些人可以用YEARS做出决定,而其他人则可以更快地做出决定。离开并留在宗教中并不像买车一样,但是人们做出大决定时有不同的方式和时间表。在第一次讨论之后,看看那些想加入教会的人!看一下见面的人并决定参加2周的活动,而其他人则需要数年时间!我也确实感到,当我听Dan的声音时,他正试图让自己变得更加愉快,’t hurt anyone’的感觉,人们会留下来。我想这对某些人有益,但对于做出此决定留下或离开的每个人来说却不是。我希望留下的人和离开的人不会’彼此不如自卑。有些可以’不能离开,别人可以’t stay.

  5. Sorry 担, you 能够 talk all you want about what the church has – but what 你不’似乎不愿意谈论的是它没有的东西,即最终的真理。我认为诚实的真理寻求者将很难遵循您的范例!

  6. I think in the second lecture 约翰 should have used 担 Vogel’约瑟夫史密斯的描述他是一个“Pious Fraud.”

    我只是希望约瑟·斯密斯(Joseph Smith)会声称摩尔门经和亚伯拉罕经书是直接从上帝那里启示给他的,而不是围绕着它们发生如此多的事件。

    The other issues 约翰 brought up are so painful to contemplate that I almost vomit when I hear them because I never would have gone on a mission or raised a family in the church if I heard the 真正 他的tory of Mormonism.

    因为我们适合主意家庭,并遵循摩门教的福音,所以我们实际上从教会中受益匪浅。然而,摩门教基于欺诈这一事实,令我感到愤慨的是,总督已竭尽所能继续神话。如果这是一个神话’它崩溃,燃烧或演变为另一个面向家庭的组织只是时间问题。我希望摩门教是我结婚并育有6个好孩子的较晚时期。对于已经结婚的孩子,我可以并且确实支持100%信仰上活跃或不活跃的孩子。但我完全承认,到目前为止,我们非常合适。当我们有一个孩子或孙子没有’t fit the religion I 能够 only see terrible harm. I hope 我不e live long enough to go through that pain.

  7. I have always enjoyed listening to 担 and 他的 perspective. However, this episode made me want to scream! It seemed that 担 had nothing of substance to say at all. He could only critique the “loaded” words that 约翰 used. It would have been nice if he could have actually responded to what 约翰 was saying and 真 discuss the issues being presented instead of just checking 约翰’s language over and over. It was so irritating and made 担 come across as insecure.

    1. I agree. After listening to the exchange in its entirety I grew tired of the mental and verbal gymnastics 担 was going for. I agree with 约翰, you 能够’t and shouldn’t 细微差别 a grown man pressuring a 14 year old girl to marry him. Feelings 能够’不能成为我们衡量道德的唯一标尺,否则我们’都麻烦大了

      1. 是的你可以… and I guess that is the difference. It is very easy to try and be 细微的 because we’重新阅读正在发生的事情(双方)。我们了解真正了解您的方式的手段非常有限’re defining as ‘pressure’ in 1840’s frontier america.

        1. 我们不’不必定义它。海伦和她的家人做得很出色,告诉我们提出这个概念对他们来说多么糟糕。

        2. 通过非常有限的方式,我认为您的意思是当时人们的日记条目。
          如果你没有’尚未收听Lindsay Hansen Park的一夫多妻制播音年。
          这个“we don’t understand” defense has been bleated by apologists for 年份 and doesn’不要和我在一起。

  8. I applaud 约翰 for ‘calling 铁锹铁锹’。我们从很小的摩门教徒就已经得到了培训,可以看到,感受和感知其他事物。

    Yes, absolutely missionaries 猎物 on ‘vulnerable’人。作为传教士,我们被教导要寻找那些‘刚刚失去心爱的人’, ‘有人离婚’, ‘those who are alone’, ‘在大学校园里的孩子’,等等-这是在打电话‘a spade a spade’。谢谢你这样做。是的,当把它扔回教堂时,哇,‘罪恶感使真相很难’.

    我完成了一项任务,这就是事实!是的,我们鼓励‘寻找领袖受洗’但是那些人通常有足够的资源/能力来研究所教的内容,许多人最终不再与传教士会面。在我执行任务期间,我们被教导‘Commitment Pattern’在MTC(90年代初’s)。这已经深入我们的脑海。这是操纵性的,屈服的,是屈服的,是使某人做您想让他们做的好方法。 (我不’不知道MTC是否仍然强调这一点。)

  9. I believe 担 Wotherspoon is a smart man. But after listening to this podcast, it is clear that he is not intellectually honest. His obsession with 约翰’s use of “strong” words like 舞弊 and racist just shows me that at the end of the day, 担 is nothing more than an apologist. What 约瑟·史密斯 did was clearly 舞弊. He deceived people in a number of ways, which resulted in money, fame, power, etc. I am disappointed in 担 W in this episode because I originally thought he was a progressive thinker…但是在听完这一集之后,他发现自己不过是另一位辩护律师。

    1. 担B,
      担B, I felt the same way you did about 担 W. and arrived at the same conclusions. While I do not question 担 Wotherspoons personal goodness, I do question 他的 intellectual honesty. As I’ve said for 年份, the most difficult lie to overcome is the one you repeatedly tell yourself!

  10. Listening to 担 reminds me of the scene in Indana Jones and the Last Crusade when young Indiana emerges from the cave, looks around to find all 他的 friends have gone, and he says to himself, “Everyone’s lost but me.”

    如果您制定出适合您的摩门教徒版本(或任何信仰),那就太棒了。但我认为’说这种狭,而务实的方法实际上是“real”摩门教。说真话声称’t that big a deal 真 makes me wonder if we were raised in the same church.

    1. “除了我,所有人都迷路了。”

      Yes. In the context of the 他的tory of religion, with its incredible proliferation of divergent theologies, such a solipsistic orientation is perhaps the 强大est evidence for all of them being human inventions.
      更具体地说,它起诉所有具有区分某项能力的主张。“spiritual”来自情感(即非理性)的经验,经历了一厢情愿的自我欺骗。

  11. 我不’不了解Dan Wotherspoon这样的人。他没有’似乎不相信教会的教义,当然不是教义的大部分,那么他为什么留下?害怕失去家人/朋友,害怕失去自己的社会群体?当然,恐惧是摩门教徒的共同主题。教会是对的还是不对的’t. If it isn’为什么留下?然后,您正在撒谎。您可以’只是决定选择在教会中您可以接受和生活的以及您可以’t。摩门教教堂没有’不能那样工作,对这种方式没有兴趣。摩门教教堂没有’•教其成员决定教义和信念(也许是无关紧要的事情,当然不是肉的东西)。它通过领导层决定了这些学说和信念。对我而言,丹不值得根据他的信仰推荐庙宇。他们违反教会的教义。那会使他成为一个坏人吗?当然不是。我对丹的问题是基于他的信念,为什么他真的在乎是否推荐庙宇?如果他能’不能接受它,那为什么还要去烦它。我认为许多摩门教徒留下来只是因为他们害怕并没有’不知道该怎么办。他们不’真的相信一切,如果没有的话,愿意离开’带走家人,朋友,社交网络。他们只是不穿’不知道他们的生活,时间等还有什么…因为摩门教的教堂文化渗透到他们生活的方方面面。突然没有它,你怎么办?这让我想起了我的狗。有时我等我系上皮带 ’米在车道上。当我这样做时,她总是停在前门的门口,看着我,等待皮带被拉上。她可以’在不遵循她所教过的过程的情况下,迈向大外部世界。你可以说她只是在想“Wait, this isn’t right. I’我应该系紧我的皮带。没有皮带怎么办?太恐怖了我真的可以在没有皮带的情况下出门吗?她可以’不要自己想。许多摩门教徒是相同的方式。羊。

    1. 我想我有保留要说“if it isn’t 真正, then leave.”
      大多数教堂都宣称某种真理,而不是摩门教徒“一真”的口号。我想我可以看看LDS信仰并看到一座教堂(一个相当控制的教堂),但是

      尽管如此,教会仍然相信人们会为他们与教会的关系找到某种意义。
      Overall, I liked the stark language- but there are flaws to what 约翰 said, where he states some 他的tory as fact- when there is some gray in the facts. It is no better than others that use the same gray and point it another direction. I heard less of 约翰 saying “I believe,” and more of “教会,约瑟夫等做了….”

      1. I guess 我不’不了解会承认自己不这样做的人’相信教会是“true”(即《摩尔门经》不是历史性的,《亚伯拉罕书》不是直译,请不要’与教会同意’关于同性恋的立场,先知们’t真正的先知),但随后希望留在其中,希望教会做出改变以符合他们的信仰体系。如果教会那样做,那不会’不再是摩门教徒教堂了。它将变成不同的东西。所以,他们不’真的相信摩门教徒,为什么要去?您相信不同的东西。

    2. “You 能够’只是决定选择在教会中您可以接受和生活的以及您可以’t.”

      我认为这样做很普遍。例如,考虑所有忽略教皇的天主教徒’有关避孕等方面的明确教义。人们总是取下所需的东西,而剩下(或避免或拒绝)其余的东​​西。

      但是那’并不是说这不会产生内在冲突,这种精明的人们会用复杂的隐喻语言来捣乱,这种语言通过用精神上丰富的轶事宣称给他们镀金,从而使他们想要保留的部分得以晋升,而这些说法都没有任何合理的表象。

      当内在冲突变得过于激烈时,对于产生了一些社会(或物质上)雄心勃勃的拥护者的临界群众来说,世界就会有了新的宗教。我在某处读到大约有30,000个基督教教派。

  12. I’m afraid 担’这种策略使我想起了全球变暖者所使用的策略,而与此相反的证据却是压倒性的。烟草公司几十年来一直使用相同的策略来捍卫卷烟。

    I’我会接受教会的领导– either it is 真正 or it isn’t. 让 your feet act accordingly.

    1. 我是全球变暖的怀疑论者,而不是否认者。每当有人鼓吹自己的意识形态时,我的信仰危机就教会了我,我对此持怀疑态度。

  13. 这个was an interesting conversation, but 担 sounded very defensive and didn’t seem able to acknowledge the 真实ity of Mormonism. He wants it to be something that it is not. I enjoyed 约翰’诚实和坦率。当他说出最适合您的道路时,我会感到他的真诚。他只是在表达自己的经验。他应该对此能够坦率,不应该’不必玩文字游戏。

  14. I’m with 约翰 on this one. 我不’认为还有很大的空间‘nuance’. 约瑟·史密斯 was clearly 舞弊ulently disposed throughout 他的 life, from the time he was brought to court in 1826 on charges of being a conman, to 他的 translation of the 摩尔门经, to the 亚伯拉罕书, kinder hook plates, polygamy, Greek Psalter, Temple Freeemasonry. The list goes on and on. He was a total 舞弊, deceiving us all. Any 细微差别 that may occur exists in the mind of the believer, rather than available facts.
    种族主义在教会中绝对存在。我们不能仅仅通过说来消除这一点‘每个人都是那样’. No hey we’re not. That’侮辱了当时为平等权利而奋斗的人们。但是,即使他们是,您还是会期望‘one 真正 church’。反正是谁的教堂?是耶稣基督的教堂吗?他领导这个教堂吗?他会控制他的神圣公司的政策和结果吗?如果是这样的话,尽管教会领袖们有缺点,但他不会允许这种邪恶的政策繁荣起来。

  15. 再听一遍

    担, you defend the fact that 我们不’t need to disclose 他的tory of the church to new members or those investigating…

    约翰 argues we need to…

    担, says ‘can’我们只是分享美好的事物’…basically the ‘warm fuzzies’并留在那儿?!?!!?!?!?!!!!?

    担- this is not a ‘warm fuzzy’教会!一旦被这种思想所吸引,’别无选择,只能走在‘orthodoxy’ if one want’s to remain ‘righteous’并保持良好的信誉。

    Would what 约翰 is advocating for have made a difference in my life? Yes! Only now I am finding all this out! Damn the mentality of hiding life- changing knowledge from people.

    如果您想充分参与这种宗教而不是被忽视,那么您需要成为‘携带圣殿卡的俱乐部会员’.

    提前知道您要签署的内容仅在道德和道德上对每个人都适用!

    担 – shame on you!

    1. +1. I would have never joined the church had I known the 他的tory of the church. I would have never married a TBM and I would not be in the daily struggle I’m in now.

      No, 担. Holding information is NEVER a good idea. How would you like it if I sold you a car that has a busted transmission but I didn’告诉你这件事吗?我只是专注于驾驶的舒适程度以及空调的冰冷程度?当它摔倒在你身上,让你困在路边时,你会很酷吗?您会继续开车吗,因为您的家人都驾驶同一种品牌的不可靠的汽车?

    2. “ “携带圣殿卡的俱乐部会员”。

      And this is why 担’无法停留。教会是 ’t asking for opinion or independent thought. They want strict obedience or else there are consequences and in the Church culture those consequences are patently obvious to everyone else. The Mormon Church is not a half in half out Church. You are either all in or shamed, shunned. That is the 真相. How would 担 W get a temple recommend? In my opinion only by lying in the interview. That’您需要了解的所有信息。

  16. 我听说丹研究了宗教,我知道他和约翰正在探讨摩门教是否可以与个人相关的问题’的生活从不同的角度来看。由于约翰的背景是心理学和咨询– it’我很清楚为什么他们对事情的看法如此不同。让我感到困惑的是,丹似乎选择了他想生活的摩门教徒,“costs”他这么少。由于他承认没有’付十分之一,而没有’我真的很想去庙里– it’对于他来说,很容易与整个事情是否值得的含义保持分离,如果它值得’是不正确的。它没有’与我坐在一起,因为约翰正在研究宗教,这是使个人按照教会领袖的期望生活摩门教的真正代价。约翰说话时,丹丹显得轻浮而几乎愤世嫉俗。整个采访过程让人有点痛苦。

  17. 约翰 Dehlin: “To the young gay Mormon who’s commiting suicide, whether or not the Church 真 is what is claims to be [sic] matters. To the woman who’s thinking about deserting her husband and taking the kids because he’s lost 他的 faith, whether or not the Church is 真 真正 actually matters”

    I wonder if 担 has much personal experience with the very 真实 damage that has been done by the Church leadership’非常夸张的修辞。他的家人被它撕碎了吗?他失去了所爱的人吗’s吗?我不知道他是否’d value 他的 “精神经历”如果他有那么多。

    There is a high price to be paid for allowing people like 担 to keep Mormonism around as their little 精神 play thing. It’s not a non-dualistic eastern contemplative tradition like the Tao Te Ching. Rather, its a hard-core, all-or-nothing, take-no-prisoners, fundamentalist religion that 能够’t be played around with like that.

    几周后即将召开大会。我们是否应该期望GA在使用“declarative”语言?还是我们应该期望他们不是那么“nuanced”?

  18. I see quite a disconnect between 担’鼓励采取周到,引人入胜的方式离开教堂,而他上楼时无视相同的方式。他特别表示,他没有’t see the need for full disclosure before baptism but that 能够 come with growth and study after a transformative 精神 conversion. 我不’t get why he doesn’不能进行这种转换。

    另一则评论。我的宣教经历与在座的其他人一样“prey” is actually an accurate description in that we were instructed specifically to target folks at 脆弱的 periods in their lives. While lip service was paid to finding “priesthood holders,”那种人极不可能屈从于我们被教导要使用的高压,快速洗礼的策略。这些是我们被指示要使用的方法,它排除了实际上可能对潜在的圣职持有人有用的更周到的设计方法。

    1. 关于时间问题的要点。哈顿’没想到。

      另外,‘加入之前需要花一些时间进行调查’根本不是一个激进的主张。约翰引用了耶和华’见证人的例子。还有,作为一个’我一直在考虑converting依犹太教,我可以告诉你’这几乎是不可能的(或似乎如此-convert依犹太教。您至少需要花一年的时间参加圣殿教堂,参加一些有关犹太教的课程,尤其要学习反犹太主义……不,因为他们没有’不想,但他们想确保您真的知道自己’重新进入。我认为这是负责任的宗教/教堂责任。也就是说,除非他们想赶快实现其他目标(例如数字,‘saints on earth’, or $)

  19. 多么棒的播客。

    两位知识分子重量级人物从不同角度进行了精彩的讨论,并且都提出了很好的案例。我认为这很吸引人,听众是赢家。

    这个could be one of my favorite 摩门教徒的故事ever!

  20. 令人沮丧的播客。

    约翰, you’re patient. Is 担 Wotherspoon typical of the “best and brightest”谁决定留在教堂里?我没有’已经有一段时间了,但看来你可以’理性思考并保持LDS。

  21. 当讨论转向时,我也感到沮丧‘you don’不必在星期天在教堂分享一切’ and ‘私人信仰发生了什么’. You know, that’一个好问题!我希望教会在这方面有更多的界限。哦,等等,您是在对上教堂的人负责吗? (讽刺)。它’当主教想就您的信仰和私生活采访您和/或您的病房顾问检查您的Facebook帖子或活动/不活动时,期望人们对自己的信仰相当了解是一个双重标准。太疯狂了我可以’t imagine the mentail gymnastics 担 must have to use to be comfortable with 他的 staying in the church . . .

  22. Love 担 and 约翰 but in this exchange 担 seems very arrogant and defensive and after all the times 约翰 asked him to acknowledge that there is another way besides 他的, he just would not do it. Comes across as 他的 way is the best way and those who don’t do the work he has done or explored what he has, is somehow missing the boat. 担, there are many other legitimate ways to look at all the 他的torical issues and emotional/spritual experiences that do not make them less thoughtful or less patient.

    1. Amen Ramsfam! I made this comment in another post after Dehlin interviewed 担 and say it again here…

      All I 能够 think about listening to 担 now is how sad I am for him and others like him that are unable to let go. What a waste of mental energy, time and effort trying to make staying work.

      Knowing the facts and overthinking things is like a battered spouse making excuses for staying with someone that’s hurting them. 担’s a victim of intellectual and 精神 abuse and he’s simply making excuses for the abuser because he won’t walk away.

      I remember a time many 年份 ago listening to 担 and feeling guilty as I heard him on various podcasts pushing people to keep seeking 精神经历 and feeling like I needed to do the same. His opinions influenced me for awhile and delayed my letting go and getting to the healthy place I needed to be.

      The fact is, 精神经历 are not necessary to be happy and I think it’s time we stop lending ear to 担’s opinions. They’re开始感觉像是无效的修复治疗形式。

      我渴望德林的一天’s “Mormon Transistions”网站上的内容足以使人们在访问后直接去那里’我们花了一些时间在摩门教徒故事,摩门教表情等上对事物进行分类,然后停止去看摩门教徒,浪费时间。

  23. I was a little turned off by 担’s argument for softer language. Racism, sexism, 舞弊, etc., all have pretty simple definitions. What other words should be used to describe discrimination based on race or sex? How about for deception to secure gain?

    If 担 were to argue that these words, although accurate, may turn off a certain segment of listeners that would otherwise benefit from the overall message, I could agree. But it seemed like he was questioning the validity of these words as they were applied.

  24. It seems to me that 担 is taking the approach of a lawyer to find ‘truth’.

    我认为自己是陪审员。向我展示或寻找证据,我会尽力评估和评估这些证据。在权衡证据后,我得出了暂时/暂时的结论(我暂时拒绝或接受前提)。我谨记,我如何权衡或解释证据总是错误的,必须保持一种态度和愿意改变自己的信念。在根本没有足够证据的情况下,我持怀疑态度说:“I don’t know, 我不’目前没有足够的证据证明需要相信”.

    担, and the larger body of apologists (for any belief system), seem to approach it like a lawyer where they look at the evidence and then they try to make the best case they 能够 for a particular side.

    For an advocate for a particular position, it seems that it is less about objective 真相 than it is about nuancing a position/belief/idea to the point where it *becomes* 真正.

    这就是为什么我喜欢科学。最好不要让科学概念变得微不足道。当科学说到“地球是X年的历史,这就是我们所知道的”他们的字面意思是。无需细微差别‘years’,该方法是一种客观,可测试,可重复的方法。现在,如果旧世界的观念与您对现实的看法相冲突,我认为一个人可能会以一种可以细化的方式来细化他们的信仰(他们的客观/科学信仰或精神信仰)。新的,更多‘nuanced’,真相。认知失调理论使我们对人们如何进行此过程有一定的了解(通过改变认知或强调/反强调某些认知以使自己恢复共鸣)。

  25. 可悲的是这是第一个摩门教事项播客我关掉!从过去的播客中学到了很多东西。将继续尝试…。希望有一个课程更正!

  26. I am officially a 约翰 Dehlin fan! You are now freely unleashed. I’我很高兴你以前’d. You 真 understand and have argued so well the way in which I feel. My bishop this last week pointed out what 担 was trying to: People who leave the church choose to ignore the spirit. My opinion is people who stay turn their minds off to the facts and call them things like 细微差别. You gained a subscriber today. If I ever run into you I will be thanking you for lifting the darkness.

  27. 担 tried to figure out where you are coming from. What is “really” your motive to believing Joseph was a 舞弊? I ask 担, who professes he is in a higher stage, why 他的 membership and defense of the church is so important? Doesn’t seem so evolved. I think that someone in the church who is connecting directly with the 神圣的 has no interest in defending 他的 transcendent sources so vehemently. 我不’认为他们会像经验一样给予源头如此多的荣誉。用伊迪·布里克尔的话“宗教是对狗的微笑” //www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDl3bdE3YQA
    I’我不确定伊迪如何适应这一点,但我认为一个超然的人实际上已经超越了捍卫人的道路或标签。

  28. 担,
    What if it was someone other than 约瑟·史密斯 doing these terrible things, correctly called wrong by 约翰, would you still make the same excuses/allowences?

  29. I respect where 担 is coming from, but I feel he is overly susceptible to the argument-to-moderation logical fallacy — it’s always, “好吧,真相在中间!”好吧,有时候是这样,但对其他人来说 ’不是。关于约瑟夫·史密斯是否是欺诈的辩论就是一个很好的例子。是的,史密斯是一个复杂的人(就像所有人一样!),但您可以证明他故意欺骗了人们。告诉某人他们需要屈服于他,否则将被一名持剑的天使摧毁,这似乎是一个很好的例子。认为他真的相信有一个带剑的天使是荒谬的。根据您的定义,没有人会被称为欺诈,因为那里’他们真的相信它!

    担’s characterization of 约翰’s use of the word “fraud”因为极端的语言令人不安。我同意’s extreme if you’在谈论它是否会冒犯TBM。从这个意义上讲,是的,这是极端的。但是如果你’再说说有关此事的人们的有效意见范围,’s 真 a very moderate position. There’有很多证据来支持它。责骂别人发表可能冒犯他人的意见是危险的。

  30. 约翰’s impassioned and 真相ful descriptions of 约瑟·史密斯 as being just wrong nailed it for me. Try as you may, 担, it is what it is, and you are stuck in an impossible to squirm-from place.

    It was 舞弊. And we, and our parents, our grandparents, were fed it. But my children: not gonna happen.

  31. I agree with 鲍勃. 担 seems quite biased that “his” way is the best way. 约翰 like all of us is probably biased but seem significantly more open to other options beside the option espoused by 担.

  32. Although I totally agree with 约翰’关于教会的结论我认为使用我相信的话可能会很好……. I believe The church is a 舞弊 etc.
    也许那表示对别人的尊重’s beliefs
    But thank you john for being clear and bold about what you feel is 真正 and how you live your life inaccordance to those convictions . again I totally agree

    担 is not clear about what he believes is 真正 —–这在情感上如何影响他—以及他仍然如何活跃在教会中的方式和原因
    I think there is a cognitive dissonance in people who believe the church is not 真正 yet remain active and committed
    In a sense I feel it is lying to oneself and others. you 能够not be totally honest with others 和your congregation about your concerns
    And the members of the ward are not 真正 friends because they would reject you because of your beliefs
    I wonder if 担 will eventually choose to let go of a church he does not believe in I hope he 能够 at least be honest about the 真实 reasons he claims to follow mormonism
    根据我自己的经验,我会被亲朋好友甚至摩门教徒的相识所拒绝,真是令人震惊

  33. 哇!在决定是否要执行任务之前,应该要求这四个部分的讨论听取每个摩门教青年的意见。虽然沃瑟斯彭先生绝不是一个人,但他提供的是我迄今为止尚未见过的关于智力扭曲的最佳文献,如果一个人选择忽略明显的东西并决定忽略其中的微小静止声音,就必须实践一下。’s asking, “WTF?” Wow!

  34. 哇!很棒的讨论。丹希望教会成为不是真正的教会。他宁愿假装。但是完整性在哪里?约翰称锹为锹,并希望它有所不同。唐’当我们以上帝的名义有意识地欺骗侵犯了我们的精神纯真时,我们所有人必须拾起自己的生命和所造成的破坏。仅显示到达网络的距离。事实是,如果约瑟夫·史密斯今天还活着,他极有可能因其非法的性,政治和经济剥削以及侵权行为而入狱并被遣返社会。如果杨百翰(Brigham Young)今天还活着,他也将因此入狱。也许大多数其他使徒可能犯有相同或较少的罪行。我们对他们的看法是什么,以及他们对我们生活的力量?几代人永远不会有时间在局部孤立的环境中长大,并传递扭曲和破坏性的教条。还是会吗?也许Dan仍然想支持他们的工作?另一方面,那些离开的人仍然必须找到自己的良知和价值观生活的方法。任务看起来如此困难吗?真的很简单。这是关于诚信。将燃油放到要燃烧的火上。

  35. 担 is big on getting to the later stages of faith, which is great if you 能够 manage it, I suppose. But there’s no denying that following the teachings of the church will keep you in stage 2 (literal belief) or stage 3 (institutional/authority belief) for life. All the conference talks, the Ensign 文章s, church manuals, etc. are all about stage 2 and 3 at best. The church is not interested in 精神 independence, and reaching that level requires conflict with the institution. 担 talks about living Mormonism on your own terms, but the church does not allow for that.

  36. 担 comes across as a condescending holier than thou jerk in this interview. 担 just because you giggle when you says stuff like “您对印刷品是否持怀疑态度?” or “do you want to keep 那个声音 in the podcast because 我不’t think it’会很好地为您服务” doesn’t make it any less condescending. 担’这个播客中的态度与许多“priesthood holders” I’ve come across in the LDS church, they know everything and you are dumb if 你不’无条件地同意他们的观点。

    1. 同意,我爱“that voice” he used! Wasn’摩尔门经中有一些家伙得到了上帝的确认,但是却四处谴责他为不仅仅出于信仰而not依的所有人。约翰欠了这个从不动摇的牛排晚餐,但是我听到他如此大胆而直率的话,我的精神得到了足够的补偿。约翰,有人会很幸运地邀请您成为治疗师,’对于人们事先认识您的事实,我并不觉得可笑,要做的最困难的事情之一就是找到一种与气质兼容的治疗师,这样也许可以使这一过程有所捷径。

  37. 让’仔细考虑谁“inspired”我们可能会为一些宝贵的金块辩护“sacred”文字激发我们的深刻“spiritual”dives. It’是个男人,他对妻子和一家将其规范化的机构说了以下话。

    D&C 132:54我吩咐我的女仆艾玛·史密斯(Emma Smith)遵守并割让我的仆人约瑟,除此以外。耶和华说,如果她不遵守这诫命,就必被灭。因为我是耶和华你的上帝,如果她不遵守我的律法,必将消灭她。

  38. 担,

    一切都觉得“light” and “divine”为吉姆·琼斯(Jim Jones)和天堂门(Heavens Gate)船员的追随者。

  39. I respect 担’s approach to staying LDS. 我不’认为对于大多数人来说,它的实用性代表了今天的摩登教义,但是如果我’我从教会的经历中学到了什么,告诉我40年的时间,只有一条道路是正确的,它使人们有权走自己的道路,而不论道路有多正确或不正确。

  40. 我对此播客有一些想法。一世’ve met 担 and you 约翰. I’ve been listening to these podcast for a numbers of 年份.

    I’我想知道这是否是您的第一次采访’ve had 约翰 with 担 as an “ex-Mormon”?

    I get that 担 wants you to stay 约翰, or to participate because he’对于您作为前LDS人的新身份感到不舒服。一世’m still of the opinion, that after all these 年份 in the Church, having served a mission, living in Utah…正式与否,我们’对教会有如此长期而深刻的承诺,我们’ll always have it’在我们生活中的影响力。

    约翰…given that you’我刚刚离开教堂(一段时间),我’m not sure how you’re going to be able to give much advice on what to do, for troubled transitioning ex-members. Clearly what has kept you from losing your marbles and 真 breaking your heart, is you were able to take your kids and wife with you, out of the Church. Further, you have a huge support group that you’能够从您那里获得情感支持’所有这些支持可能会维持您的收入。

    我很高兴听到您承认神庙推荐问题/有价值问题中的舞蹈,试图让您的回答听起来诚实,这本身就是令人不安的。我想说实话,我讨厌避免直接回答,以使自己看起来像是一个信徒。

    我最终失去了三个孩子’的婚礼(到目前为止)和我们的家人最终放弃了我们的第一个孙子收养,因为我“went along” with my wife’的选择。主教告诉我女儿“悔改过程的一部分”来收养孩子,这使我完全被排除在对话之外(对于我家中的圣职权威而言,是如此之多)。

    你什么’我会发现约翰是坐在圣餐聚会上,看到父母在幼小的孩子耳边低声作证,或者坐在主日学课上,而老师却说,纳威暴徒是由教会的敌人制造的,例如威廉(William)和简·罗(Jane Law)(如果您对教会的历史了解的话,他们知道他们是在说实话)’很难闭上嘴,通过分享任何真相只会“take the spirit”离开会议并造成讨厌的表情。

    因为我妻子与我离婚,(因为我向教会提问)’参加圣餐聚会并与其他家庭聚在一起实在太难了。整个经历真是令人麻木的灾难,因此,祝您在研讨会上帮助人们过渡的顺利。确保涵盖诸如PTSD之类的主题。

  41. I have no idea what church 担 is trying to portray in this interview, but it is not the Mormon Church I recognize. 这个feels like a weird form of soft apologetics and is not based in the 真实ity of how most Mormons would describe their religion or 精神 life.

  42. 约翰 is such a kind and thoughtful person. I respect him a lot and while we differ in our faiths, we’我也有类似的旅程。他的温柔使我放松。

    1. 担’的断言有点poppycock!他’s using straw man arguments and misrepresenting 约翰. 约翰, you are a patient man.

  43. 约翰”s Gestalt:
    约翰 has captured the persistence of doubt and wrestled it to the ground. His doubt is my doubt and remains the doubt of inquiring minds, as it is said, “Those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities. For 约翰 the pursuit of enlightenment is the path humanity has tracked since the fall –– a myth that echoes for the guilt we all share as members of the Anthropocentricene.
    For 约翰 Dehlin the persistence of doubt is 他的 burden as it is for us all. Thanks 约翰 for your forthright insight; you are far more than the sum of your parts. Gird your loins for the impending Anthropocentricene.

    Pax to you 约翰

  44. Interesting discussion, mainly because I expected more support of 担’s position, and more criticism for 约翰’s antagonism. 约翰 drove me crazy in this interview, constantly cutting off 担 and then launching into long comments while 担 let him have 他的 say. Hey 约翰, STOP CUTTING OFF DAN. Drove me nuts.

    1. 职务:
      担 Wotherspoon Interviews 约翰 Dehlin 关于 His Evolving Perspectives on Mormonism
      史提芬, you are driven nuts by your misunderstanding of 谁在采访谁。
      担 was fielding questions and 约翰 was responding but 担 was not playing fair and “things llike that.”

        1. “裁员和谈论他们是不好的形式,”
          当受访者必须忍受Wotherspoon’s run-on sentences that include no questions but repeated phrases like, STUFF LIKE THAT, and THINGS LIKE THAT, and SOMETHING LIKE THAT, 约翰 was compelled to enjoin as Wotherspoon would carry on ad-nauseum with more THINGS LIKE THAT.
          因此,不管有多少类似的事情,糟糕的形式或没有对约翰的采访都必须结束。
          担 could hone is skills and your complaint would not be registered.
          对不起’我不是一个好的辩护律师。

          phi

  45. It seems like 担 Wotherspoon LOVES being a new order, stage five mormon. That it is SO fun and rich and satisfying for him. He loves the deep family connections, he loves the mental gymnastics required, all of it. Mormonism seems like it may be the absolute ideal community for 担 Wotherspoon to be a stage 5 fowler within.

    而且由于人们倾向于通过自己的眼光来看待其他人,因此他似乎认为其他人将像捕鸟人一样满意和充实。
    但是我只是不’t think it is 真正! 我不’t think it is 真正 for MOST people.
    I stopped believing in the church when I was 21, was a N.o.m. with the same worldview 担 Wotherspoon describes. It was fine. In a lot of ways good. It was probably the most 精神 time for me, I was able to get all the benefits, but without the belief, none of the guilt or sense of duty/obligation. I would just go, observe and have 精神 feelings. It was great.
    但是你知道什么更好吗? Waaaaaaay更好吗?根本不去!在几乎每天的工作中,我都会感到非常感谢’m no longer Mormon.
    Mormonism just is not my style. It is 担’的风格。他很幸运,以这种方式寻找了更多的人,但是我认为我已经取代了教会曾经在我生命中扮演的角色。

  46. 这个interview made me so emotional. I recognize that staying LDS 能够 be the best thing for many many people. I just wish that more people who choose to stay active in the church, and choose to see it in a positive way, could 真, deeply and truly recognize that Mormonism 能够 be detrimental to a population of exceptionally good people that are balanced and optimistic but who 能够’避免经历痛苦的​​历史,心理伤害,自杀,离婚和个人伤害。

  47. 我最喜欢这次对话的是彼此之间的尊重’s view. I feel like 约翰 was much more direct and clear about 他的 acknowledgement of 担’s approach being just as legitimate and potentially effective as 他的 own. I feel like 担 never made it clear that he felt like 约翰’的方法是有效的。一世’m still curious where he actually stands on that. I read the following quote 年份 ago and refer to it often,
    摘自一本书“Oneness”;
    您选择的崇拜自由是您神赐予的与生俱来的权利。没有人比您更了解奉献之道,这是您最满意的。抵制这种倾向,以使自己的内心热情被其他人的恐惧所挫败,而这些恐惧可能会因您新发现的精神方向感而受到威胁。知道他们的道路是他们自己的选择。如果家庭成员选择继续特定的宗教传统,那是他们的权利。但是,他们没有权利强加于您。您没有义务仅仅因为这就是您一生的家庭遗产而参加仪式。如果能使您乐在其中,请参加,您将拥有最高的选择权。同样,如果没有表现出开放性,请抵制尝试将家人和朋友转变为您新发现的精神方向的诱惑。你的道路是你自己的。试图说服他人成为您的个人真理,您的权利已不再是他们这样做的权利。让其他人拥有您想要享受的自由,您将展示您最希望与他人分享的东西。

  48. 你是个很有耐心的人约翰。您的语言准确无误,能反映出实际情况。即使真相发现一个事实不是事实,也可以找到真理。我认为您是一个如果您所显示的内容不正确就会被驳斥的人。我不感到缺乏深入研究这些问题的骄傲。从我的角度来看,这是一次非常具有攻击性的采访。不论是否有公众人物,我们每个人都有权选择自己的道路,并表明我们对什么是或不是什么的当前理解。在没有承担个人责任进行自己的研究和评估时,任何人都不应接受任何公众人物所说的话。您的面试官有一个特定的议程来确定您有一个“ulterior”和看似邪恶的议程。但是,当然可以。您的日程安排是要反映您步行的路途。那是所有人的自然法权利。我个人的研究和观点是,您在过去的10年中一直保持平衡,并且步行去研究前面和中间的宗教问题。从我的角度来看,您的面试官具有复杂的三段论推理模式,您表现出了极大的耐心。本期“Spirit”成为“Truth”在我个人的世界观中,这是非常成问题的。一个人必须能够识别出他们“精神经历”可能是除了足以有效地使真相仅基于该基础的事物以外的事物。多伦多启示录中的约瑟·斯密(Joseph Smith)指出,启示录可能来自以下三个来源之一…..God…人或撒旦。因此,启示是一个粗略的问题。在约翰一书4:1中说,“亲爱的,不要相信每一个灵魂,但要试探他们是否属于上帝。因为有许多虚假的先知流传到世上。” So we must ‘证明所有事物,并坚守美好的事物。’否则,我们冒着沦为道德相对论立场的风险,这种立场可以利用细微差别来避免您基于我认为基于客观和开放折衷方法的真诚而全面的评估而表现出的不必要的现实。我爱你在这次采访中表现的。 U Dun Gud。顺便说一句,我已经听完了您的所有采访,肯定值得一顿牛排晚餐。但是,我对满足播客的需求感到满意。

  49. 这个is the side of 约翰 I’ve been desperate to see 😂
    I think 担 is incredibly blind to the 真实ity. I’ve heard Ward mission Leaders suggesting the elders hang out in cemetery’s and approach sad and grieving people because they might be receptive to their message. If that’s not prying on the 脆弱的 我不’t know what is? There are lots of great young missionaries out there but even the best of them are still desperate to get ‘numbers’ baptised.

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