评论 78

  1. 只是从外部的角度来看,鼓励人们继续进行精神体操以保持活跃状态​​就好比鼓励高举’在沙子里。拥有一个鼓励人们保持活跃的网站本身就是疯狂的。一个应该’不需要支持就可以成为一切信徒。当出现挑战时,答案应该容易获得,而不必使用任何重复说话或回避直接问题的方式。“要使自己的心真实”。除此之外,任何事情都会使人撒谎。教堂是相当黑白的,正如欣克利所说,’要么为真,要么为真’t。鉴于领导层的行为以及在光天化日之下的事实表明,事实并非如此。’t, 为什么 not pull the arrow out and actually have some real healing.

    1. 生活充满了悖论和异常。实际上,具有成熟信仰的人的一个标志就是能够在她/他的思想,心脏和身体中保持多种二分法。

      想道教–在悬浮的非二重性中重视阴和阳。思考佛教–重视宁静(自然现实中所有元素的平衡)。和基督教–哪些价值赎罪– or at-one-ment.

      生活不是黑白的。实际上,’不是灰色的。它也不是彩色的。它’s all of that –以及不断演变为越来越复杂的意识,意图,能量,身体表现和经验的新组合。


  2. Amen, 鲍勃. Well said and thank you for saying it. In my experience, you have explained the only healthy path a 摩门教徒 能够 take.

  3. 吉娜,很高兴您的大脑从未在枝形吊灯上爆炸过!现在,收看Braindead的一集,嘲笑DC政治和爆炸性脑部感染性疾病的讽刺意味。

  4. 谢谢您的这一发人深省的情节。我试图以我自己的方式参加教会。它’很好,如何不支付十分之一股份给LDS Inc.,这使我自动摆脱了’我对包括领导职位(或女性领导职位),圣殿等不感兴趣。

    However, I understand the frustration expressed by the audience. There are two 教会es, the one we create in our own wards and the larger institutional Church. While I will use the tools the panel discussed to help my unorthodox participation, I think it must be recognized that this type of worship comes at a great cost: marginalization, fractured family relationships/marriages and isolation. It is a lonely road and one that often raises the question if we are really helping those marginalized including LGBTQ brothers and sisters. Like Thomas, 我不’不知道,但我希望如此。


    1. 安娜感谢您的评论。爱它。约翰亲自向我询问了我的评论。我批准将其包括在内。这些年来,我’我准备去法庭。我认为驱逐出境是自由思想家的荣誉徽章。

  5. I 能够’t fathom how some of the panel 能够 buy into a philosophy or life plan when it may not be 真正。 Are you kidding me! Whether or not the book of 摩门教徒 is true or not is not relevant is simply gaslighting yourself into a comfortable view of reality. There is objective truth. Anecdotal evidence of it “works for me” is a intellectually dishonest approach to living a genuine life. Finding characters in the book of 摩门教徒 that resonate with youre life situation is cherry picking evidence to justify cognitive dissonance. Rant over.

    1. 我不’没买任何东西。一世’m not acting out of some kind of robotic unconsciousness. 我不’t think any of the panelists are. We just see the necessity to assent to a prescriptive literal religious practice as being unhelpful for our spirituality. And 我不’相信任何事情都是客观的–特别是精神上的。

      1. 吉娜. Well prescriptive religious dogma is exactly what 摩门教徒ism is. 我不’t know how you define spirituality. Is it the feeling of something bigger than yourself or the feeling of awe in life? Because for me if you try to build social mores from feelings it leads to a world of inconsistencies. Trying to shoehorn ones view of spiritual nuance in 摩门教徒ism is impossible.

        1. Prescriptive Religious Dogma is exactly what 摩门教徒ism is…according to the lens you are looking through and the definition in which you have chosen to define it, 杰德. This is cognitive dissonance too. But it much more difficult to see when it is your own. And be careful with how you throw around expectations (you seem to expect that 吉娜 should represent an ideal you have) because you 能够 come off sounding just like the institution you so intrinsically loath.

          1. I doubt this is cognitive dissonance. The truth claims of the 教会 do not pass critical thinking in almost all their doctoral issues . I am not maintaing two conflicting views about their nature. Staying in an organization knowing full well it is nonsense is pure cognitive dissonance or just plain selfish.

  6. I’我对整个小组深表感谢:约翰,丹,吉娜和汤姆。感谢您对个人信念的真实和反思的回应。我赞赏和平共处,相互包容和相互了解的整个进程的主题。我感谢为每个人留出空间的想法’的个人旅程。我很欣赏这次讨论中的诚实,因为不知道事情的答案是可以的—但要在信仰之旅中留出奇迹和发现的空间。尤其是在一个越来越愤世嫉俗且以负面为中心的世界中。我感谢丹’s comment, “我会天天善良”。我也感谢每个小组成员’对离开信仰的人们以及正在苦苦挣扎的人们表达的仁慈和爱意。我很欣赏关于在自己的个人旅程中实现个人和平与授权的讨论’s. Great podcast.

  7. 您好,我感谢您的讨论和提出的问题。勇于参与讨论的任何一方。

    话虽如此,但我在任何地方都未见过讨论太多的事情,那就是当有孩子时如何处理这种非正统的情况– Primary-aged and in the youth programs of the 教会. The dogma of the institution permeates those programs, from the songs children sing to the content of the lessons. If you want to see the direction the LDS 教会 is going theologically, take a look at the new Doctrinal Mastery New Testament Teacher Material here:

    在未来几年中,我们的孩子将受到这种材料的灌输。它是最新资料,甚至包括作为现代启示及其过程的一个例子的罗素·尼尔森(Russell Nelson)’最近声称11月的禁令是一个启示(请参阅“先知与启示” section).

    发展细微差别和“I’ll just be there” thinking this panel suggests, but what about our children in Primary, YW, and YM? How do they get the space to develop nuance when the lesson material is like that above, when the conservative, orthodox viewpoint is jammed down their throats at all turns within the 教会, with, as the leaders claim, 神’s imprimatur? I 能够 understand the desire to hold on if it is just you, as a critically-thinking adult, but children, with their impressionable minds, are a major part of the equation for many of us.

    我希望看到有关如何执行此操作的认真讨论“staying active” crowd. It’s fine for us adults to engage in this mushy fancy-talk to finesse our way through activity, but black-and-white, 权威-laden messages are what our children get to hear. It won’改变,并且由于我们非正统的信念,我们将被边缘化,阻止我们参与努力“prepare the youth”在我们的儿童和青年计划中。在很大程度上,这些计划将由公司的男性和女性担任。

    我们该如何处理?我们是否可以从“stay active” crowd?


    1. Excellent point and topic, 科迪. I think waiting for the 教会 and its teaching materials to change is a mistake. The music alone has an emotional hook that is hard to overcome, but it 能够 be replaced at home with other uplifting music and literature that teaches good values. It is impossible to constantly undo what kids hear every Sunday at 教会, especially if you are not right there in class in the moment with them hearing what is being said and able to counter it in real time. There is so much pressure to believe, to bear 见证 , to follow the Prophet, right or wrong, to take scriptures literally. 我不’t see an available middle road in the 教会, and the kids 能够not possibly feel accepted and on equal footing for very long if they have doubts and questions and liberal beliefs expressed at home. Get them out now.

  8. 观看此播客,我从中学到了很多。谢谢!但是,我不得不说,这给了我几乎身体上的反感。我想那是一个“perceived threat”向后退一步。我不得不将其关闭,然后尝试再次观看。一旦那只鸵鸟把自己的头从沙子里拿出来,就再也回不去了,需要的勇气是巨大的!在这里,我并没有看到采取行动的勇气,只是用大量的措辞来支撑头脑。这让我感觉好极了!

    1. It’s offensive to refer to members of the 教会 that have pulled their heads out the sand so to speak but want to or chose to 保持活跃 as ostriches putting their heads back in to it. I think we 能够 all pull our head out the sand and still enjoy being members of the 教会, and in doing so we will create a better 教会 for everyone.

      If everyone WHO pulls their heads just leaves, it makes it harder for those WHO still have their heads in it and become aware of the issues. Won’您是否足够爱他们,向他们展示一种更好的方法,即使您需要耐心和善良?还是要问很多?

      Being an active member of the 教会 does not equate to ignorance, but it’我们选择了一种文化上的生活方式,即使我们不’t believe everything to be historically true, their are traces and elements of the divine that are valuable and 能够 be honored and cherished.

  9. I have been walking the paths we have all been discussing, in one way or another, for 20+ years now, and have found them to actually be just one path through many highly personalized stages of transition, that, I think have to ultimately lead to personal evolution beyond organized, institutionalized 摩门教徒ism, one way or another, either through our own evolution and agency or through the decisions of local leadership. This was the only healthy path through it all for me, anyway, and after having listened to many many episodes of 摩门教徒 Stories, I think I am not alone in that.


    1. 以斯帖


      I grew up outside Utah but the SLC rigid 摩门教徒ism you speak of definitely exists outside Utah. I believe this rigidness comes from the foundation of the 教会 leaders (especially 约瑟·史密斯 and Brigham Young) which was a result of the black and white(we are right, you are wrong) Christianity of the 1800’s。从一开始就一直是的信息是“我们是对的,其他人都是错的(或只有部分是对的)”。这个信息已经很清楚地从基金会得到了发扬。我同意这赢了’t change from the 教会 office building but 我不’真的认为它甚至在地方层面也没有太大变化。人们只是不穿’不想相信那可能是错误的。

      我曾经听过一个摩门教徒的辩护律师说“you 能够 believe anything you want in the 教会, you just 能够’t teach it…” Which means just keep your thoughts to yourself and we will tell you what to believe and teach. The reality is that if are a member of the 教会 and publicly denounce, disagree, or claim things like women already have the priesthood (bold move 吉娜) then you are in danger of being kicked out of the 教会.

      1. Giving up the fear of being kicked out of the 教会 is the greatest liberation from spiritual tyranny and unrighteous dominion. It leaves one free to be authentic. So what if I get kicked out? It won’t make a difference to my spiritual life, my desire to be a Christian disciple nor will it make me any less 摩门教徒. I hope 我不’由于受到破坏和暴力的影响,纪律总是对社区造成伤害,但是我个人认为CD不仅仅是对神圣事物的表达,更是对我们宗教恐惧的表达。

        1. 吉娜

          感谢您的答复。我也想说,我真的尊重您的观点和力量。它’s good to see someone WHO will stand up and challenge things that just don’t 说得通 or flat-out ridiculous tradition. I feel that excommunication falls into the ridiculous tradition category.


          1. 不,我不’t 杰克. I think the more we 能够 hold our broken, sinful, margin dwelling, questioning, doubting people the more enlivened we will be and the more spiritually nourished we will be because we will be stuck with each other. And our only healthy response to that diversity and challenge is love and compassion. I say this as someone WHOse first husband was excommunicated. At the time I felt smug and vindicated. But I see now that no good came of that for him or me or the ward he used to preside over. There are situations of predation that need a heavy legal and community hand to protect. I 能够 see the value of the 教会 improving their systems to safe guard but even in that situation I see no value in excommunication.

          2. Yeah but 吉娜 为什么 don’你丢了行李吗?唐’告诉我您的遗产许可。一世’m 5th generation 摩门教徒. Lose the baggage. Or would you better be labeled the homophobic, misnogyinistic, the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully believer?

  10. 我不得不说这些人是我的那种人’d like to have in my Sunday School class each week–wherever that might be. This kind of dialogue is engaging and worth my time. I agree with some things that were said, and disagree with the overall perspective it takes to continue participating in a local ward when the evidence is there to prove (to me anyway), that the LDS 教会 is not what it claims to be.

    正如暹罗国王可能会说的那样,麦康基先生是,“a puzzlement”他的声音和视野听起来都非常像亚当·米勒(Adam Miller)。每当我听到汤姆,亚当·米勒或纪梵特这样的人讲话时,我都会“贝德纳长老如果在听众面前并要求对所教的内容做出回应,会怎么说?”

  11. It was interesting to hear the different reasons people decide to stay/return LDS 摩门教徒. Thank you for the honesty of the panel. Most of it sounded like personal journeys so that is not something another 能够 给 comment except “go for it” However what I did not really h ear addressed is what 摩门教徒ism professes to BE and what it means to support it in the world. ”耶稣基督恢复的福音。” ? The “地球上唯一的真正教会 ”.? 那 is the message. If you believe it and want to try to reform it then great. But 为什么 would you want to reform the true Church of Jesus Christ led by a prophet? If you know it is not true then it is fraud and 为什么 do you want to dedicate your life to its growth.? It deceives and manipulates people and has done so since its inception. Why one would want to focus their energy and resources to enrich such a snare is confusing It sounds like some of the panel is attributing the goodness of the human spirit to the LDS religion. Not so.

  12. 杰克和吉娜,谢谢你们的评论和见识。我很欣赏这种播客和对话帮助我发现和重新思考我自己一些持续的先入为主的思想和极端思维的方式。我很荣幸有机会这样做。吉娜(Gina),能够在里面留出狮子 ’s den, so to speak, to call it as you see it and not care if you get kicked out requires a deep courage, ethic and care of others. This is the middle way, done well, done right. You have my respect and my gratitude for that as I 能够 see the real need for that now. Before I could only see it as supporting a manipulative and hurtful organization based on fraud, as well as keeping oneself in an emotionally untenable situation, as that was my experience. Life is complicated and so are our personal solutions to such complicated situations as being 摩门教徒 and waking up to what that really means.

  13. I 能够 also honor 安娜’s decision to not pay tithing while continuing 教会 attendance, which is eventually noticeable to ward members and could possibly wake them up to realities they weren’t aware of before. One way or the other, it is a continuing statement to local 教会 leaders about the corporate 教会, which I 能够 applaude now. Another way to make a statement, although my eventual choice was to make a statement with my feet and a resignation letter!

  14. 谢谢托马斯(Thomas)的结晶和强化,’s probably been floating around at the edge of my mind for several years now: If I 能够’t accept the fact that my TBM husband 能够’不接受我这样的事实’m no longer a believer in everything his 教会 teaches (and no longer a member, at least not until some of their membership policies radically change, if ever), then I’我犯了我指控他的那种不接受的罪名。现在我的头终于明白了,我’m hoping that my heart 能够 eventually feel it, and that my behavior 能够 change to match. I’d对您可能有的任何建议感兴趣。

    And thank you John, 吉娜 and Dan, for doing 摩门教徒 Stories, Thoughtful Faith, and 摩门教徒 Matters. I’自从几年前我发现他们以来,几乎已经收听了您所有的播客,’ve helped me cope with what 摩门教徒ism has done to my marriage and my life, and to think about my relationship with my husband and his 教会 in new ways. I too hope to make peace with it all, somehow someday. And it sure was fun to watch a video with all of you together in one place.

    顺便说一句,在这里’s my take on the discussion about 为什么 would anyone want to stay a member of an institution once they find out that it’s doing harm, and maybe even more harm than good. I think of what people do when their home is threatened, such as by a flood or a fire, or when their city is threatened, such as by crime or war. Some will take WHOever will come with them and whatever they 能够 carry, and do their best to escape, but others will stay and fight to save their homes or their cities, and try to rebuild them and repair whatever damage has been done. Both responses are 有效, and I respect both those WHO choose to leave and those WHO choose to stay.

    EDiL13(耶洛因’s Daughter in Law)

    1. “If I 能够’t accept the fact that my TBM husband 能够’不接受我这样的事实’m no longer a believer in everything his 教会 teaches, then I’m guilty of the same kind of non-acceptance that I accuse him of.”


      A subsequent question is (even if I accept their non-acceptance) how much energy do I spend with the person or institution? Is that the best use of my time? Or do I spend more of my time with people WHO project an energy of acceptance?


      1. This is false. You have evidence that makes truth claims false or 真正。 You are victim blaming yourself. You 能够 provide a rationale reason for decisions you make whereas a believer resides in faith.

  15. It takes a lot to make 摩门教徒ism work once one realizes that there is more to 摩门教徒ism than what correlation provides. I am impressed by the nuanced and thoughtful perspectives that each of the panelists provide. As Dan mentioned, it takes time to be able to come to a place where you 能够 accept the 教会’s flaws but still see the light it 能够 provide.

    I spent the last year building a website that I believe will be helpful for people to evaluate the pros and cons of 摩门教徒ism. The site is: http://prosandconsofmormonism.com/

    I evaluate over 60 topics in 摩门教徒ism and try to show the good and bad of each topic, from different perspectives. It is a safe place tat does not link to anti 摩门教徒 websites. For progressive 摩门教徒s trying to make their way in 摩门教徒ism, I think this is a very valuable resource. It will be more valuable if other people also leave their perspectives, and I hope that some of you will stop by and leave yours.

  16. I feel torn. Part of me 能够’t wait for the day when we stop giving air time to Dan. His line of reasoning kept me trapped in a protracted faith crisis that should have ended sooner then it did and I regret ever having listened to the likes of him, the Givens and those WHO have tied themselves up in so many knots and then try to convince others to do the same.

    On the other hand, maybe the point of 约翰·德林 continuing to bring Dan, 吉娜 and others like thin back is there are those not like me WHO are trying to tie themselves up in these same kinds of knots, but when they hear Dan and 吉娜 say the things they say these other people recognize how ridiculous they were to think like that.

    1. It’称我们的立场荒谬可笑。我不’认为您退缩的愿望太荒谬了,所以也许您可以像我们一样礼貌地对待我们?话虽如此,如果您想要的是同质性和确定性,那么这就是’t the conversation for you. Dan is a fine human being WHO embraces complexity. For some that works and for others it doesn’t. But it’s not ridiculous.

      1. 吉娜,你误解了我的意思’m saying. Let me 给 you an example. Years ago, when I was going through my faith crisis I listened to a 摩门教徒Stories podcast with Tom Kimball and Dan Wotherspoon. While I sided with Tom, Dan kept making statements to Tom as if he was his post-Mormon bishop along the lines of (paraphrasing from memory) “您是否还在日常生活中寻求精神体验,是否正在寻求联系,” etc, etc, etc.


        那是因为我们后摩门教徒仍然习惯这种“bishop-like”言行举止,我们对此感到内。它’s the same passive aggressive guilt tripping that works so well for the 教会 and we experience from leaders, family members, and friends.



        Dan in particular needs to change his pattern of speech. As you 能够 tell from so many of the comments here, he actually triggers PTSD in many of us. His last interview with John last year almost sent me back into counseling as I listened again lto him guilt tripping John just like a Mornon bishop would do.

        所以,也许我’m just one angry person WHO feels duped by Dan, just like I was by the 教会. But all you middle-roaders need to hear this kind of feedback, and be carful that while you may still be stuck and tying yourselves up in knots, don’鼓励我们其他人也这样做。它’都是你的症状’重新说出和怎么说(尤其是Dan)。您可能弊大于利。

    2. 我看到。

      Dan说话的时间越长,建筑物中排出的空气越多。甚至Dan在试图解释自己的观点时,似乎也陷入了一个几乎沮丧,失败,辞职的状态。他的肢体语言和几乎恳求的语调揭示了他的立场是徒劳的。他’s grasping and I agree that many people 能够 see that realize that there is no there there. He’我认为许多人都打开出口门。


    3. 同意对于您认为荒谬的内容,您有权提出自己的意见。我不’t know how others compartmentalize, live with the dissonance, 能够 ignore so many shelves that are so overloaded with damning evidence. Perhaps they feel forced to because of business, family, and societal connections to the 教会 and the resulting pressures. Their struggle to hold on is perplexing and disturbing, but perhaps their views do add contrast that is instructive, just as are the ridiculous 教会 essays.

  17. Flabbergasting. Completely 能够not understand or identify with any of the three panelists. The person WHO made the most sense to me was John’的表弟。哦,还有那个匿名人士。

    1. I thought every participant in this discussion made sense. Each panel member and post-discussion questioner had a personal paradigm, process, life experience, and personality. Each expressed a 有效 point of view. I would love to see every man and woman find his/her own spiritual path and walk it without disparagement (or summary dismissal) by others. Surely we 能够 only “be right” about our own spirituality and its practice. We 能够not “be right” about someone else’s.

      也许我们可以通过听,听,然后想象自己是什么样子来更全面地理解和尊重他人。与其将我们独特的观点投射在我们周围的人们身上,不如我们可以暂停我们的范式足够长的时间,以使他们知道自己有权拥有自己的……而他们不可能这样做。我们每个人都是我们各自的环境,智力,气质,遗传,信仰体系,环境等的产物。我们不能也不应被别人衡量’的个性化量尺,发现不足。只做别人“make sense”他们的观点何时与我们的观点紧密一致?要是我们“can’t 涉及”对他们来说,也许我们有一些办法弄清楚他们是谁,以及他们来自何处。以这种方式打开我们的思想和心灵是可能的,但我认为这需要实践。作为一门学科,我希望随着教会及其人民在未来几年中的发展,能够不断发展这一学科。我的目标是尽力“relate” to others, even when I 能够’t or don’t agree.

      1. Opinions 能够 only be considered “valid” when they are well founded, sound, reasonable, rational, logical, justifiable, defensible, etc. We 能够 defend everyone’s right to express his or her personal opinions and beliefs. We 能够 be polite and kind by listening to others’ beliefs without challenge. We 能够 delve into others’ personal experiences and emotions to help us understand 为什么 their ideas 说得通 to them. However, in a forum where there are so many WHO feel betrayed and deceived by incorrect, misleading, and deceptive information that has emanated from the “only true 教会,”现在是进行批判性思考,保持透明和坦率的时候了,而好礼并不是他们的重中之重。

        The problem with any discussion of faith is that people confuse their religion with truth. Truth is that which is in accord with reality or fact. With science, it is facts, critical analysis, a preponderance of evidence, and experimental results that 能够 be reproduced that define truth. With religion, truth is defined by those WHO write the holy writ. Religious belief is perpetuated by traditions, habituation, family and peer pressure, and emotions. It is the sense of community support, the hope in an afterlife, and the emotional comfort people find in their religion that convinces them of their religion’的真理和正确性。

        We should not discuss truth and religion as if they were on the same plane. I agree that religion or spirituality is something personal and individual. 那 is 为什么 there are as many different types and variations of belief within human hearts, even within each religion, as there are people. Believers need to admit to themselves that all religion, including their own, is logically indefensible, that it is outside the realm of any standards of truth or 有效ity, and that it is an individual CHOICE, embraced above and beyond all reason, because it is emotionally satisfying to them, not because it is a fountain of truth. We 能够 eliminate intolerance, personal angst, cognitive dissonance, mental gymnastics, and any need for apologetics, when we admit that religion has little to do with reality or truth, but we seem to like it and need it anyway.

  18. My 摩门教徒ism, simply put, is about community, though I do find great beauty in 约瑟·史密斯’广阔的宇宙学。如果您有疑问,请单独&私下里,我中西部大学城病房的所有成员,’d可能会发现,例如,’t believe the Book of 摩门教徒 is historical. No big deal, actually; we still have our ward dinners &活动中,我们仍然会做家谱,甚至去庙宇。这种社区的凝聚力和遵守是心理健康的前提,至少对我们大多数人而言。

    The behavior of 教会 leaders should not make people abandon the Church any more than the behavior of certain political leaders should make citizens abandon the USA. 该机构不属于领导层。 Their prehistoric opinions of and behavior towards homosexuals, women, minorities, and their bizarre far-right political orientations do not reflect the attitudes of a large sub-set of members, nor will these opinions/behaviors prevent the Church from evolving into what it will one day become: radically inclusive, truly loving – Christian!

        1. I’ll stay out of the debate about WHO the institution really belongs to, but either way, I hope you won’t really “repent”您对于成为社区一部分的美好想法,或对未来的美好愿景。我希望你’re right about it, even if 我不’t live to see it.



          1. 其实应该是“基督教会主席团…”


    1. Investigators of the 教会 are 给n a simple challenge . . . pray about the BoM to know whether it is true (meaning it is an authentic, historical, and god inspired document as 约瑟·史密斯 represented it to be). If it is true, then the 教会 is true; if it is not true, then the 教会 is not 真正。 The 有效ity of the BoM is the central, basic, fundamental, official teaching upon which the 教会 stands or falls. If half your ward does not believe in the historicity of the BoM, and you are in the 教会 only for the community, how 能够 they or you feel comfortable or honest in this 教会 membership and affiliation? Why stand as a representative of a scam and something you do not believe?

  19. Reading these comments has been really interesting to me. I feel like they mirror the conversations that are occurring in my daily life. I once considered leaving 摩门教徒ism. I am a straight ally to the LGBTQ community and am devoted to building equitable communities. My ideas don’t fit within 摩门教徒ism. In my career I work in suicide intervention and crisis counseling. When I began doing suicide intervention with youth in Idaho, I realized that leaving 摩门教徒ism was a bit more complicated because I would be leaving behind LGBTQ youth. Those youth needed a person to create safe places but they are born into 摩门教徒ism and often to conservative parents, they are in need of people willing to stay and provide safe harbor until they are old enough to exit. So I have embraced this new spiritual path in my 摩门教徒 faith community. What has been surprising is that I meet very little negativity from my ward members and I am absolutely honest with them about my intentions. Instead, I often receive cruel judgment from 个人 WHO have chosen to leave 摩门教徒ism. I am still unpacking what is behind this.

  20. 科迪’s comments above — that’s exactly the point. I understand that wards 能够 be great communities and have been a part of that in various places in the US and abroad. I also understand that there are different roads people take, and that staying part of the community 能够 be a valuable thing for many people. It has been my choice, for example.

    But is there ever a cost. You 能够’t talk away everything your children hear and do at 教会. Reading through or trying to teach through the Primary manuals is an eye-opener. Or reading online the Primary Sacrament Program for 2016? Or worse yet, being IN Primary as you find yourself unable to teach more and more. Read through some of the lessons. See the new song they’重新学习?称为“Praise to the Man.” The children get a very, very strong and clear message. It is not nuanced. And it starts in Nursery. And the messages are even more leader-roulette as children get older and into their teens where even more 教会-leader energy is pointed their way. If you are active in the 教会, you know how much energy is poured into the youth. The strongest leaders, the most attention.

    We 能够 have hours of podcasts where insightful points are being made. But meanwhile, it pays to be aware that if we are sending our kids to Primary and to Mutual, no matter what conclusions about the 教会 we ourselves come to, our children are being, for lack of a better word, strongly indoctrinated and they, like so many of us, will have to work through all of that later when critical thinking skills kick in.

    我希望在某个地方讨论关于混合家庭中的孩子的情况,其中一名配偶相信而另一半’t. I would love somewhere to see that while we are all talking about having a big, accepting tent the 教会 is sharpening its message and drawing even stronger lines.

  21. 美丽,仁谢谢。我在爱达荷州学区从事特殊教育。去年,一名学生在我的高中因性问题自杀。他的父母当时’t 摩门教徒, but they were conservative and religious and he wasn’总是得到同伴的支持。我没有’不认识他,他没有’虽然我不在我的势力范围之内,但是从那以后,我和学校的所有其他工作人员都被困扰了。无论是专业还是个人,都需要您选择做的事情,对此我深表感谢。我感到您雄辩地谈到了我一直在笨拙地试图解决的对话的复杂性。只要确保自己也照顾好自己即可。你不’不必出于任何原因而继续从事宗教组织活动,或者使您觉得对自己造成的伤害更大’re trying to help than you 能够 individually do good. There is a lot of power in leaving too. Ultimately, though, it’仅取决于您和您的真实生活。

  22. http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/jobs/the-power-of-why-and-what-if.html



  23. But I must say, Hats off to Dan for speaking out against the 教会 policy toward lbgt. I do admire that he acknowledges some of the problems with 教会 doctrine and lends some support to questioning 个人.

  24. There is one topic that seems for me to be missing. If I attend and continue to be completely honest I 能够 not really be a full member. I 能够 not attend the temple. I 能够 not participate in my children’的婚礼。我会觉得很奇怪,并且喜欢欺诈“give” my son the priesthood. I would never feel like I am really part of the group. I would have a hard time holding in comments that would likely offend someone and embarrass my wife. Would I really be treated much different than the LGBT group in the way of not really being fully accepted for WHO I am and what I believe?

    我真的很感谢你们所有人所表现出的真正的爱。我只希望我们每个人都能拥有那种爱和接受’s situation.

    1. I’我目前没有参加庙宇。我说一世’m hard to place in 教会 callings. Yet I go and feel part of the community. It wasn’总是这样。我以为除非我按照规定出现,否则我不会’t being 摩门教徒. Then I gave myself permission to be myself found it was fine, my contributions are welcome and I’我很感激。但是出于同样的原因,我试图为其他人腾出空间’即使我不相信信仰’不同意或感到有点恼火–因为那是我一次。赢了’到处都是这样,但这对我有用。

  25. Bravo for another insightful and fascinating 摩门教徒 Stories episode. I applaud it simply for happening, and for defining a conversation around this idea of “Unorthodoxy”. The challenge to hegemony begins with honesty and open listening. Though I found myself vigorously agreeing or cringing from time to time, I think the diversity of the panelists is critical, as it reflects the fluid spectrum of 摩门教徒ism, a fact which the LDS Church would like to suppress. I especially appreciated 吉娜’s approach that 摩门教徒ism comprises the vast collective experience of 摩门教徒ism across the globe. I also feel like all panelists were wonderfully self-aware, which is in and of itself an act of rebellion within a religious culture that survives in an echo chamber.

    las,对于LGBTQ +社区,我仍然没有任何希望的答案。当教会领袖被困在“独处,等到下辈子” narrative, too many straight 摩门教徒 allies are doing their own handwringing and calling for patience and forbearance. I have yet to attend an LDS ward where I felt fully welcomed and fellowshipped as an out gay 摩门教徒. As I was not willing to spend decades of my life waiting for the Church and its members to adjust their thinking and doctrine, I left. Now, long-suffering and waiting is literally killing our LGBTQ youth. As what point does it become too much? How many kids will we sacrifice before someone speaks up and says, “Stop.”对于我来说,很难听取两位异性恋的白人男性(汤姆和丹)的特权,这些男性的非正统信仰受到特权的滋养,而我们中许多非正统的信徒却因为存在而被抹杀了。我感谢这些重要的哲学讨论,但我不相信我们正在解决真正的危机。

  26. 我非常喜欢这次讨论。我相信耶稣基督本人会很乐意参加的。他’也是聪明,周到和友好的人,愿意让我们每个人选择自己的道路。你们所有人的力量很好。

  27. Awesome podcast John, you are an inspiration and doing so much good. Your conversations are helping a lot of people and I wanted to say thank you. It seems a stark contrast to Elder Holland’s recent mental illness video that is creating labels instead of helping people talk. Could it be that many people that are labeling themselves as depressed or mentally ill are really just suffering from false 教会 teachings or difficult policies without an outlet or way to talk about it? For example huge numbers of LDS missionaries returning home early due to mental health concerns / sickness.

    我感谢Q&之后,小组将耐心和愿意吸引观众。我和约翰的表弟布雷特·帕金森(Brett Parkinson)博士相似,而匿名人士在听完采访后感到沮丧。参与者似乎很有意思,而且很有动力,但是我和那两个男人一样,希望听到更多有根据的确定性。耐心等待改变是不够的。我不愿意让孩子遭受我一生中最大的痛苦。矛盾的是,它也是我最大的幸福之源。

    Thomas mentioned his disaffection starting at age 13 and it sounds like an age many 摩门教徒s start feeling problems. 莎拉 Collett, the host for A Thoughtful Faith before 吉娜 expressed a similar reaction at that age. She pins it to the polygamy doctrine and the extreme uneasiness that came when learning about it (Episode 82, Curtis Henderson). I’m interested in finding out if that’s what Thomas is talking about as well?

    Is it possible that polygamy was not of 神, but Joseph was still a true prophet before he fell, pre-Nauvoo? (I believe the sources for pre-Nauvoo allegations for polygamy are weak, and pre-Nauvoo revelations are strong evidence of a worthy prophet). This has been the most useful tool in sifting between truth and error. We just ask ourselves, “Was it revealed before polygamy, or during?” It’s a unique paradigm that everything fits into perfectly. We believe there’s a difference between priesthood 权威 and power, and Joseph lost his power when he started living polygamy. But the 教会 structure was still there and Jesus Christ has been leading others after polygamy to get back on course and regain priesthood power. (We believe Jesus Christ is leading any person or organization that is willing to live correct principles.) As Elder Uchtdorf has said the restoration is an ongoing process. That’s 为什么 my wife and I remain active LDS members.

  28. To believe in the 教会 is to believe that 约瑟·史密斯 truly saw 神 the Father and his Son. 那 through him the 教会 was restored including the 权威 of the priesthood. 那 there is a living prophet today that continues to speak with 神 and that 神 is directing the Church and His truths are immutable, unchanging eternal laws. When I peaked behind the curtain and found that wasn’t true, that 约瑟·史密斯 committed acts and taught doctrine that could not have been in harmony with the 神 I believe in and that either 神 continuously changes his mind about the laws and more importantly, WHO are accepted children and how valuable certain of those children are, or the 教会 leaders are just doing what they believe in without actual direction from 神. If the Book of 摩门教徒 is not true, the prophet is not the single anointed leader on earth, the doctrines are not true and the brethren don’t have the direct 权威 from 神, what’继续存在的意义是什么?它’是否正确。如果它 ’s not true 为什么 stay and try and change it? Forge your own path with those WHO believe that all people are equal under the eyes of 神 and the path to 神 is not through those WHO believe the only way back to heaven is simply 教会 attendance. The panel members claim to be 摩门教徒s, but to be 摩门教徒 you actually should believe in the 摩门教徒 religion, not the hope that the 教会 will someday believe in yours.

    1. “It’s either true or it’s not.”

      Your 二元 misses the point. No religion is “true.” That’不需要宗教/教堂履行其心理/社会功能。

    2. RJR ,

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It’s easy to see you are a person of integrity. We’ve been thinking about your comments and questions. We also “peaked behind the curtain”, having always felt that polygamy is wrong and 能够not be from 神. What we found on the other side was shocking to say the least, and a lot darker than we thought it would be.

      We had a hard time believing in the priesthood 权威 of the 教会. How could Joseph have priesthood power and 权威 if he was living polygamy, what we believe to be adultery? We now think there’s a difference between priesthood power and priesthood 权威. Authority has more to do with 教会 organization. Power has more to do with how you are living your life and qualifying for 神’s power. We believe the 教会 still had priesthood 权威 but Joseph was lacking in priesthood power, as well as the 6 presidents that followed him that also had plural wives. That would explain 为什么 Brigham Young had so many ridiculous teachings.

      We had to ask ourselves, how 能够 we still believe in prophets but also believe they make mistakes? This question required another. Where did we get the idea that prophets are perfect or 能够’t ever lead us astray? We found it has been incorrectly taught in the 教会 for many years. One main quote is from another Polygamist prophet WHO was also lacking priesthood power. It was Willford Woodruff at the time of the Manifesto “The Lord will never permit me or any other man WHO stands as president of this 教会 to lead you astray”。但是他的教义也需要像约瑟夫和布里格姆一样受到质疑 ’s have been, because he was unworthy. That statement he made is simply not 真正。 Church leaders are not 神-like, infallible men. They are weak and simple, like all human beings. They 能够 make minor as well as major mistakes.

      The 教会 leaders have done such a good job of indoctrinating this false teaching, that even people WHO get angry with the 教会 still hold this teaching at the core of their beliefs. If people are going to throw out false teachings, this should be the first.

      If you read the bible, it seems that imperfect 教会 leaders have been getting in the way of 神’s will since the beginning of time. This is not new to the modern day LDS 教会. 神’s truths are immutable, unchanging eternal laws. But 神 is working with imperfect, fallible humans, and he won’t force revelation. Even prophets have agency.

      So 为什么 能够’t our 教会 leaders renounce polygamy and apologize? They are like Thomas McConkie, making excuses for their Uncles and Grandpas generations back. It’s ok to say that Bruce R McConkie was a good person, and at the same time, was completely wrong when he said we’d all live polygamy after the Second Coming.

      It’s ok to say 约瑟·史密斯 was a true prophet but fell hard when he started living polygamy. It doesn’t mean many things he taught before he fell 竞技场 ’t 真正。 Why do so many people believe someone 能够 悔改 and become good but not believe someone 能够 be good and then become bad? We think that is answered by what we said earlier.

      We believe polygamy is at the core of the LGBT children policy. It seems 教会 leaders felt they had to be consistent and apply the same policy that they’ve had for polygamist children. Why have they had that policy for polygamist children? They are vulnerable to polygamy until they eradicate it from their own doctrine. We believe they are still making mistakes because they will continue to lack FULL priesthood power until they renounce polygamy and the 教会 fully 悔改s.

      Find out for yourself if most of the major past and present problems with the LDS 教会 would exist if polygamy had never happened. Research it chronologically with polygamy unworthiness as your filter.

      Is the 教会 true or not?

      我们认为D&C 1:30是为什么许多人认为教会必须是100%真实或不真实的一个例子。这节经文的棘手之处在于,它与雅各布2:30非常相似-它包含括号内的短语,很容易被误解。许多人误解了这一点,认为主在说他唯一的,真正的教会已经完全恢复了。如果您能绕过令人困惑的括号内的短语,您会发现主正在谈论一群人,他们被赋予了他的诫命/《摩尔门经》,他们将有能力“奠定他的教会的基础”,并且推断出尚未完成的建设项目。基督说LDS教会都完成了的经文在哪里?如果尚未完成,并且介于基础和完成之间,那么将会有很多不正确的事情。我们认为最好说这是“最真实的”教堂,而不是“真正的教堂”。当耶稣基督本人在会议中心的讲坛上讲话时,它将成为“整个地球上唯一的真实而活泼的教会”。我们感到有幸参与建立梯日圣徒耶稣基督教堂,成为主教堂。我们确实相信约瑟·斯密(Joseph Smith)看到了父神和儿子。我们确实相信摩尔门经是真实的。摩尔门经是一块30至60磅的金色绊脚石,可防止我们离开教堂。a我们已从精神上证明了其真实性,我们不能以废话为由。对于大多数亚伯拉罕书,我们的感觉并不相同,但这可以通过前面提到的时间顺序理论来解释。


      1. Said the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Ladder day Saints! I love the Fruedian slip! There is a fundamental flaw in your rationale. You say you believe 神 and Jesus appeared to Joseph. I’我假设你了解“why” 神 appeared to Joseph, you know, the part about none of the sects or 教会es being true? Which leads us to the great apostasy, which we’尤其是因为祭司权威的破裂,人们把圣职从地上夺走了。在我看来,您认为包括约瑟夫在内的前7位先知都误入歧途。缺陷在于您对圣职权威和权力的看法。您’重新忘记了圣职“keys”方面。 LDS.org说:“Priesthood 键 are the 权威 Heavenly Father has 给n to priesthood leaders to direct the use of His priesthood on earth. Jesus Christ holds all priesthood 键. “The 键 of this dispensation,” which are necessary to lead the Church, were conferred on the Prophet 约瑟·史密斯 (see D&C 110:16). Today the members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles hold those 键. Priesthood 键 are also 给n to the Presidency of the Seventy; presidents of temples, missions, stakes, and districts; bishops; branch presidents; and quorum presidents—including Aaronic Priesthood quorum presidents.”

        您断言约瑟夫失去了神职,但“church” retained the 权威. Other than you stating this as an opinion, where would anyone find reference to the 有效ity of your claim? Priesthood 键 according to 摩门教徒 doctrine have always rested with the individual, not the organization. If the latter were true then any agent of the organization could confer priesthood 键 and offices upon any member. If your argument were 有效 it would seem not to notice the case that certain “individuals”没有,或继续不因得到这份祝福而受到祝福“authority”。约瑟·斯密(Joseph Smith)特别证实了 ’s hold of the 键 only deepened as his 权威 was questioned. There were those in the early 教会 that would have loved to have 给n the 权威 to the organization, however 约瑟·史密斯 contended that the 键 and rights of the priesthood resided with the individual presidents of the offices of the priesthood, his being the ultimate office, that of prophet, seer and revelator. The 教会 did not have the 权威 but the individual, based on individual worthiness, according to the founders of the religion that you seems to have sway in your heart.

        There are many machinations, mental gymnastics and hoops to jump through with your response. This 教会 is a restorationist 教会, WHOse entire philosophy was to restore that which was lost specifically due to the broken chain of priesthood 权威 and 键 that followed primitive 教会 of Judea. To say that somehow that 7 prophets, seers and revelators lost their way, with the priesthood 键 secretly surviving on the periphery with rogue counsellors WHO never had such 键 conferred upon them, and WHO in their hearts and actions denied polygamy only to have such 键 passed on via a quasi Knights Templar, and resurface with…who…Heber J Grant? It betrays everything this 教会 is founded on.

        作为无神论者,我认为’都是乌龟,但至少我有一个很好的主意,这个教会做什么,不相信和主张,对于那些热衷于二元方法的人来说,我要这么说。它’使我们陷入二元思维模式的教会。它接连提出了一个具体的真理要求,否认这一点就是否认现实。三位小组成员与反“binary” thinkers live in the dualistic realm, as in the earth is round and the earth is flat. If we argue that we are accused of 二元 thinking. Hence our three panelists WHO love to live in the esoterica of flowery words and lofty platues of pink skies. Sigmund Frued said something very profound that describes our three panelists and those that are most things not 摩门教徒, but just 能够’放开标题。“在现实中,只有很久以来就一直假装自己脱离宗教,才试图假装自己或他人。当涉及宗教问题时,人们会犯各种不诚实和智力轻罪的罪行。哲学家一直在扩展单词的含义,直到它们几乎没有保留其本来意义上的任何东西。通过打电话“God” (or I’ll inject, “Mormon”) some vague abstraction which they have created for themselves, they pose as deists, as believers, before the world; they may even pride themselves on having attained a higher and purer idea of 神.”

          1. 深深地附着肯定的。那里’仍然是Nauvoo的一家铁匠铺,有我的姓氏。在精神上?唐’带着烦恼和失望误解了火与口才。人们也可以伸出自己微弱的手臂来阻止密苏里河沿其法令行进,以阻止我对这片土地的烦恼。 --

        1. 嗨,粗鲁的狗,


          我们仔细阅读了D中的所有经文&C and the BOM having to do with Priesthood Keys and Priesthood Authority. We have come to realize Keys and Authority have some unique differences from each other. Church leaders have used Authority and Keys interchangeably, the same way “priesthood” is used interchangeably with Power or Authority. We don’t have a problem with Priesthood as a synonym for 权威 or power. We do have an issue with the definition of 键 you mentioned from lds.org. Here’s one way Keys and Authority are different. In D&C 121:36-37 it says that unrighteousness = “Amen to the priesthood or 权威 of that man”. Based off these verses, Joseph and the leadership of the early 教会 would have lost the priesthood, the 权威 and power, because of polygamy. Yet if you search D&C代表“钥匙”,您会发现圣经中记载着王国的“钥匙”已赠与约瑟夫·史密斯和十二十二,并且永远都不会被拿走(D&C 90:3 and D&C 112:14-15)。这些经文会使主自相矛盾,除非钥匙和权柄是分开的东西。

          You mentioned Joseph dug in his heels towards the end of his life and claimed he had the Keys, and therefore the Authority. However, at that time Joseph was living polygamy and was unworthy of priesthood power and 权威. Therefore we need to question his claim that holding Keys automatically meant he had Authority.

          We stated that the 教会 kept the 权威 but leaders had lost priesthood power. We also were using the word Authority interchangeably with Keys and now realize that was wrong. The 教会 did lose its Authority.


          We believe you 能够 have Keys without having Power and Authority.

          耶稣基督拥有所有祭司钥匙。如果他告诉约瑟夫,他不会把他们带走,直到他再来(D&C 112:15), he either changed his mind, or the LDS 教会 still has the Priesthood Keys. Righteousness isn’t a prerequisite to holding Keys, or he would have made sure to state that somewhere in a revelation to Joseph like he did for Authority and Power (D&C 121). Less-than-perfect men holding offices in the 教会 能够 pass on Priesthood Keys because they are not their Keys. They are borrowing them from Jesus Christ. One has to 是正确的eous to know what to do with the 键, but we believe they were indeed passed down through generations to today.

          We believe that the Lord does not take away Keys of the kingdom, but they 能够 be lost, as with Christ’s original 教会. If the essential positions that Christ created, such as the 12 apostles, don’t exist, then WHO is there to hold the 键? In the case of the LDS 教会, the succession of Keys has not been broken since 约瑟·史密斯.


          In April 2010 General Conference, President Packer said “We have done very well at distributing the 权威 of the priesthood. We have priesthood 权威 planted nearly everywhere. We have quorums of elders and high priests worldwide. But distributing the 权威 of the priesthood has raced, I think, ahead of distributing the power of the priesthood. The priesthood does not have the strength that it should have and will not have until the power of the priesthood is firmly fixed in the families as it should be.” We believe this principle is true if the word “Keys” is used instead of “Authority”. Referencing back to D&C 121:36-37,在世界上不可能存在与权力不同的权力,因为权力是由于不义而在同一时间夺走了权力。

          The lds.org definition of priesthood 键 is almost right. This is how we would say it: “Priesthood 键 when combined with priesthood power are the 权威 Heavenly Father has 给n to priesthood leaders to direct the use of His priesthood on earth.”

          Here is how President Joseph Fielding Smith should have said it: “Keys are the right of presidency; when combined with power they 给 someone 权威 to govern and direct all of the Lord’s affairs on earth.” (Conference Report, Apr. 1972)


          1. We wanted to clarify one thing from our last post where we mention the mantle of a bishop. We said there’s a position based difference between 键 and 权威. That’s not correct because 权威 is inclusive of 键. To have 权威 means you have 键.

      2. “The Lord will never permit me or any other man WHO stands as president of this 教会 to lead you astray”。但是他的教义也需要像约瑟夫和布里格姆一样受到质疑 ’s have been, because he was unworthy. That statement he made is simply not 真正。 Church leaders are not 神-like, infallible men. They are weak and simple, like all human beings. They 能够 make minor as well as major mistakes.

        This is where you totally lose me and I have never heard the 教会 say the prophets are weak and simple men prone to mistakes. They might make a mistake here and there, but on big ticket items, I think 神 would be crystal clear about how he wants his people to be led or what is the purpose of having a prophet? What Wilford Woodruff taught is the basic tenet of the Church today, i.e., 神 works through his prophets (Amos 3:5 which I taught a thousand times on my mission). First of all, of the billions of people to populate the planet, the all-knowing 神 chose 约瑟·史密斯 to restore his 教会 in the great council of heaven. He is number two, second only to Christ himself. I have a hard time believing 神 chose someone he knew would become almost immediately apostate to his core teachings. That’s not a simple man just making a mistake. The 教会 believes that the prophet speaks directly to 神. To say JS went off the deep end with polygamy could be believable, and one might even argue that’s 为什么 神 let him be killed in the Carthage jail, except that polygamy was carried on as the basic doctrine for the 教会 for decades. I have a really hard time believing the next six prophets were counterfeit or unworthy prophets and would love to see where that theory is supported by the 教会 today. 那 is simply a rationalization that is contrary to Church teachings.

        至于关于存在的评论“binary,”我一生都被教导教会是地球上唯一的真正教会,由天父重建。我花了数小时进行宣教,教导今天的教会与基督建立的教会完全一样。教会不相信它的目的是填补某些生理或社会功能。你是在哪里拿到的?!它’s purpose is “使男人的永恒和永生不朽 ”这是唯一且唯一的协议,摩门教徒与所有其他教会之间的区别在于,有一位先知拥有钥匙并直接向上帝说话。相信教会大部分都是真实的,然后您可以选择适合自己的信条,这完全违背了教会的教义。要说约瑟和接下来的六个先知直接对上帝说话,但是’有价值的生活不仅违背了教会的教义,而且是巨大的想象力。为了做到这一点,他们当时’t是真正意义上的先知。它要么是真正的上帝教会,要么是’就像地球上其他所有教堂一样。我不’不要批评那些去世的人,因为他们在会员,B的教皇或教义本身中发现了一些好处,但这是唯一一个您必须全心成为真正的信徒并享受圣殿的祝福的教会,等等。我有时仍然会参加圣礼,因为我发现自己有一些好处。但是我也没有错觉,参加尝试改变教会是有价值的,我不’不要说出我的所作所为’不要出于对那些相信或选择不质疑者的尊重。

        I respect anyone WHO believes in the doctrines of the Church as much as those WHO don’t。如果您不这样做,信息真的很美’剥去层,在某些方面’s exceptional for the youth. I do, however, have a hard time with people WHO don’相信它,但正在努力改变自己的信念,并怀着希望。它’就像踢足球一样,其唯一目的就是试图让所有人都踢足球。如果您想参加另一项运动,那就去做吧。

  29. Honestly I would have liked to stay to help our LGBT youth but attending 教会 was so bad for my mental health. That place is toxic! 摩门教徒ism is a cult! All the energy I spent rationalizing beliefs I knew were wrong sent me into an emotional breakdown. Mental gymnastics are hard and ultimately futile. I predict most of the panelists will leave the 教会 eventually. It will wear them down.

  30. 我一直在寻找肉。感觉就像是一场高谈阔论,没有实质内容。这里’我会问的一个问题是:每年有4个机会向第一任总统和12位使徒提供维持或反对票。您投票赞成维持,弃权还是反对?如果您维持或弃权,是’难道实际上支持您希望看到的有害政策吗?为什么不投票反对?

    1. Sam, the LDS Church corporate ecclesiastic system is nothing if not legalistic. In that vein the mechanism of sustaining is the only legitimate legal road one 能够 travel to its ultimate destination. Unfortunately that road seems to have many roadblocks, which have been placed their by members un-use or misuse. I used to think I could get through those roadblocks, but was rudely awakened to their reality in my second excommunication in 1992, which was followed by the ‘Sept Six” events of 1993.

      If you want to stay true to yourself, but remain active in the community, I suggest simply continue raising your hand in opposition at all the levels of opportunity you have and note the official reaction that results. If you 能够 weather the local storms that may come from the waves you stir up, you may get attention from higher levels of ecclesiastical scrutiny, which could 给 your personal vessel its greatest challenge. Keep up your valiant voyage, my brother, and the sharing of your journey’与我们其他人的经验。你有观众。但它’s not for you to know it的结果。毕竟,据我所知,很久以前,只有耶稣在肉体中才能控制海浪和天气。幸运的是,我们仍然可以直接将他用作导航员,顾问和朋友。我们根本不需要任何教会中介!

    2. Sam, the LDS Church corporate ecclesiastic system is nothing if not legalistic. In that vein the mechanism of sustaining is the only legitimate legal road one 能够 travel to its ultimate destination. Unfortunately that road seems to have many roadblocks, which have been placed there by members un-use or misuse. I used to think I could get through those roadblocks, but was rudely awakened to their reality in my second excommunication in 1992, which was followed by the ‘Sept Six” events of 1993.

      If you want to stay true to yourself, but remain active in the community, I suggest simply continue raising your hand in opposition at all the levels of opportunity you have and note the official reaction that results. If you 能够 weather the local storms that may come from the waves you stir up, you may get attention from higher levels of ecclesiastical scrutiny, which could 给 your personal vessel its greatest challenge. Keep up your valiant voyage, my brother, and the sharing of your journey’与我们其他人的经验。你有观众。但它’不是让你知道你的旅程’的结果。毕竟,据我所知,很久以前,只有耶稣在肉体中才能控制海浪和天气。幸运的是,我们仍然可以直接将他用作导航员,顾问和朋友。我们根本不需要任何教会中介!

  31. 因大自然母亲设计她所做的事情而使教会崩溃是没有道理的。宗教将因其实际的进化适应而被揭示。这些模因是否足够狡猾,足以适应一个截然不同的时代,还有待观察,但不要’不能低估它们的耐用性。在这一点上,尽管有不利因素,宗教在保持心理健康方面似乎仍然很有用& social cohesion. Look for the creation of secular entities that resemble faith and 能够 be plugged directly into existing mental structures –那,或者我们演变成开明的伯特兰·罗素’s,得到我的投票。

  32. My deepest thanks to the panelists of this episode. I wish I could hug you all. Believing 摩门教徒s wonder 为什么 in the world I 保持活跃 when 我不’t believe. And, as evidenced by the above comments, former 摩门教徒s also wonder 为什么 in the world I stay! That makes the world a pretty lonely place. Hearing from you guys made me feel a little less alone in the 摩门教徒 world. (I’是“体贴信仰” 脸书页面的一部分,但听取我所处环境的人们的真实声音甚至更好。)

    I’在过去的三年中,我一直是一个没有信仰的人,但是由于我丈夫和大家庭的正统观念,他仍然很活跃。一些前摩门教徒对我说,“aren’t you worried about all the damaging doctrine that the 教会 is teaching your four children?” But, really, wouldn’离婚对他们来说会更糟吗?保持活跃对我的配偶很重要,保持真实对我很重要。所以我参加了,但是我不再隐藏自己的信仰危机或非正统的观点。一世’m grateful to be in a ward filled with eclectic people WHO still accept me and even let me teach lessons sometimes. 我不’t think I’d能够在我们所涉其他更传统的病房中生存。

    The most difficult moments for me are when damaging doctrines are taught (such as LGBT-related stuff, the temple, inherent racism, or modesty rhetoric). I get really angry about it sometimes, but one benefit of staying is that I 能够 be the dissenting voice that breaks up the “yes men”在房间里。例如,去年圣诞节,我和一些病房成员出门训练,所有六位长者都在我的车上拼车。我问他们一切进展顺利,他们告诉我由于新的LGBT政策,最近很难找到调查员。我正在与之交谈的长者的举动似乎是荒谬的,任何人都会受到该政策的冒犯。我告诉他我对新政策感到愤怒。我详细介绍了我的观点。我强烈感到,那些长者从教会成员(而不是非成员或前摩门教徒)那里听取了这一意见,从而受益匪浅。它’像这样的经历使我不断前进,并帮助我感到自己有一个地方和目标。

    My biggest struggle with 教会 attendance right now, is figuring out what my “testimony”是不可知论的成员。发生信仰危机最困难的事情是失去了所有答案的安慰,知道生活有目的,而你’重新走上正确的道路。的状态“not knowing” has caused me a lot of distress. Dan, one comment you made was especially helpful in giving me a seed of a new 见证 . You made a comment along the lines of, “I believe in a 神 of compassion. Whether that ‘God’是人类的实际存在或集体同情心,它没有’t matter.” That is a concept I 能够 get behind. It brought tears to my eyes to find something, one little thing, I 能够 start to build a 见证 from. I would appreciate if anyone reading this comment knows some additional podcast episodes I 能够 listen to, that discuss the process building an agnostic 摩门教徒 见证 , the process of finding a new spirituality. But in the meantime, I’我感谢这个播客和香脂’一直为我疲惫的灵魂。谢谢你们。


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