评论 57

  1. 大部分的陈述“rebuttal” 信件 don’似乎没有回应朱莉·贝克(Julie 贝克)在讲话中所说的话。相反,整封信似乎是在回应贝克的不必要,不慈善的误解’s words.

    例如,阅读贝克的第一段’说话,然后阅读“rebuttal”评论。如果你读贝克’经过仔细的交谈,她没有赞扬2000名脱衣舞的战士或他们的母亲,因为他们的军事实力。相反,贝克称赞他们是因为“他们是真理和清醒的人,因为他们被教导要遵守上帝的诫命,并在他面前直立行走。”那个无耻的话使贝克获得了以下“rebuttal” statement:

    “我们。 。 。拒绝一切形式的暴力荣耀。摩尔门经的故事使我们充满了无法言状的悲伤,那里有2,000多名年轻士兵,他们的母亲教导他们相信对上帝的信仰将在他们杀死其他母亲的战斗中保住他们’孩子们。这不是成功的故事。这是一个关于人际关系失败和战争恐怖的故事。”

    It would be a fine 驳斥 statement if it were actually responding to something 贝克 said, but it doesn’t。所有这一切都向后弯曲,以找到与朱莉·贝克(Julie 贝克)意见相左或令人反感的东西’的谈话,似乎一群LDS女人只是itchin’进行了一场斗争,并以此演讲为借口,表达了长期以来对女权主义者的不满。

    I’我不是在说女权主义的关注不是’合法的。我的意思是,抓住朱莉·贝克(Julie 贝克)的这种特殊情况’以此为借口打磨女权主义者的斧头只是彻头彻尾的愚蠢。

    But I doubt my opinion on this 信件 will get much weight because I 有 male anatomy, and in my experience the feminist injunction to take women’更为认真的观点通常只会走一回事。

  2. 我同意,安德鲁(Andrew),脱衣舞娘的言论完全错位了– it doesn’与朱莉·贝克有关’s talk at all.

    但是,我认为这封信的其余大部分确实是针对演讲的(或者至少是对演讲主题的一种普遍理解)。我妻子的谈话有些问题。她的信中也有一些问题,特别是您提到的脱衣舞战士的评论。最后,她说,她认为大多数摩门教徒妇女都会同意这封信的内容。–但事实并非与教会领袖相矛盾。

    My guess is that most LDS women (especially in the younger generations) agree more with the sentiments of the 信件 than those of the talk.

  3. 克里斯,我同意许多LDS女人可能会同意“rebuttal” 信件. It’很难拒绝其大部分内容。谁可以不同意这样的陈述?:“承担照料工作和家庭责任的男人和男孩使所有家庭成员过上更幸福,更充实的生活成为可能。”我怀疑有人会不同意这一说法。

    我的观点是,尽管阅读了朱莉·贝克(Julie 贝克)’说话两次,小心,我不能’不能理解“rebuttal”信以为贝克是相反的。例如,贝克从未说过,家庭责任是妇女的专属责任。

    我希望“rebuttal”将来,他们的声明将对他们的同胞姐妹更加慈善,因为他们不会弯腰寻找被同胞姐妹说过的话感到生气的东西。

  4. 我完全支持信函中表达的观点,尤其是“不信任[分开但相等]的修辞”。我也同意以下声明:“经常被提醒她“同等重要”的人可能并非如此。没有平等的决策权,伙伴关系是虚幻的。 ”

    These statements 有 long been needed to be made. I hope they gain momentum and eventually the church leadership will change the teachings, policies, procedures, attitudes and the “向家庭宣告”反映这些变化。

  5. 作为LDS的年轻母亲,有六个孩子,在听完和听过Beck姐妹之后’s talk and reading the above 信件 I 有 to agree that I identify much more with the 信件. I felt that 贝克姐妹’的谈话无非是要捕食摩门教女人的罪恶感…我们常常因做那些被认为是‘right’ or ‘good’. The admonitions that we should be the BEST homemakers in 世界, etc, are in my opinion plain silly! I 有 six children and anyone who is busy multiplying and replenishing the earth {as the church also encourages}, doesn’t 有 much time to keep those little offspring perfectly shiny and clean all the time! The fact that 贝克姐妹 put such emphasis on going to church in a pressed dress and a ‘missionary style’好像那是完美的照片一样,剪发只能使许多不同的人受排斥。我们不应该排除,而应该包括。和贝克姐妹一起’按照参加教堂的标准,耶稣本人在那儿将不会受到欢迎。否则他至少还是会成为局外人。而且,她等于达成了这些无关紧要的细节,因此保持盟约和更加属灵。我不是说’为教会打扮不是很好…我的意思是,这不是最重要的事情,因此重点更多地放在物理方面,而不是精神或内心。为什么没有’t she say… “And a 好 mother is one who makes sure her children go to church prepared for church that day by…。然后说出一些本质上属灵的东西(例如说家庭祈祷等),而不是表面上看起来很完美的东西?那’s what turned me off. Because not only is it usually impossible for us to make it to church with pressed dresses and 传教士风范 hair cuts, why is or should that be the goal anyways? For what purpose? There are much more important things…

    为了什么’s worth…与我交谈的这个年龄段的大多数女性对此都不满意,并说这让她们感到自己像一个可怕的母亲。
    我认识的只有几个女人喜欢它。

  6. 约翰,你独自一人看着“men who support”标题。您为什么是唯一的男性签字人?

    I like this 信件, and I’我很高兴它被发布。如果可以的话,我会加我的名字。

  7. 斯蒂芬妮
    如果您完全不同意谈话的原则,那为什么会让任何人感觉像一个可怕的母亲。在我看来,只有在您遵循什么原则的情况下,该方法才有效。

  8. 博士,我说过我在教堂里和其他女性交谈过的话说,这让她们感到自己像一个可怕的母亲…这些是TBM的女性’t 有 issues with the principle of the talk…他们同意,他们需要更加努力地工作,做更多事情,等等。他们说,谈话确实使他们感到更糟,尽管’t doing 好 enough. This is what annoyed me…这次谈话不仅要抚养妇女和母亲,还必须使那些努力努力达到教会标准的人感到不舒服。…它继续重申我的信念,即妇女在我们的社会中不被重视…特别是在教堂。我认为除了“lip service”在教会和整个社会中赋予妇女价值。作为一个很小的女人,TBM我一生都在生活,有6个小孩,在庙里结婚,等等,我从没想过我会说这样的话,也从未相信… but I do believe that is a huge huge issue in society at large that is readily seen in our church. As a mother of 4 young girls, I admit it is a problem that I 有n’尚未弄清楚如何处理…

  9. 似乎有些人会支持那些讲有害,厌恶女性主义教义的人,同时又试图提醒那些因厌恶女性主义教义而受到挑衅的人,让他们感到内by,提醒他们说自己被挑衅是错误的。那有多恶心和扭曲?

    当货币兑换商挑衅他的父亲挑衅基督时,基督错了吗?’s house? Well, neither is any woman or man wrong at being provoked by the harmful, misogynist teachings by Julie 贝克. In fact, we 有 a duty to be provoked when someone preaches misogyny, homophobia, racism, and the like.

    我非常喜欢UU赞美诗“我们是一个温柔,愤怒的人”. It doesn’t mean that we aren’大部分时间都很快乐,但我们应该为不公而生气。您可以在这里找到这些单词的副本: http://entreated.blogspot.com/2007/02/we-are-gentle-angry-people.html

  10. 愚蠢地愚蠢。

    我发现整个事情完全傻了。我了解许多人可能会觉得她的评论有点刺耳,但是在重新听完并重新阅读了谈话之后,我发现整个论点毫无意义。

    It seems like a typical situation where no one in my ward here in Canada would even 有 noticed or cared but seems to just grab the Utah saints. Yes I know the 信件 was signed by people who are not all from Utah. But I also know that no one either in relief society or elders quorum here in Canada seem to go ballistic about it.

    If you do not agree with it then do not 清单 en to her. If you think it is just her personal opinion then fine. But if you think I 有 not been called to repentance for a whole lot worse in Priesthood meetings in General Conference then sisters I suggest you watch a few of them.

    Personally, my wife and I 有 chosen together that she was to stay with the kids in the home as much as possible.

    Some times that has not been economically sensible but we made the choice because all the social studies done, as well as common sense and the general authorities 有 suggested it.

    After living in Britain for four years I can say that I 有 seen what can happen when kids are not raised responsibly or in the home and it is ugly. I believe that this argument is being launched because Julie 贝克 is an easy target. You are not attacking the “bretheren”有一个想法,您可以更轻松地摆脱它。

    It seems be an agenda which is focused around ideas that 教堂 is not progressive enough for some people so rather than take a soft approach some want to agitate. So hitting at 贝克姐妹 is just an underlying way to hit every conservative leader in the church who are against feminist ideas and the feminist approach.

    Hurt feelings and 抗议的表达不会改变领导人或大多数成员的意见。 I would dare say that they do go a long way to hardening attitudes. Creating as straw man arguments against the talk, putting meaning into 贝克姐妹’可能是意料之外的谈话似乎是发表声明的一种好方法,它可以使其他人看到您的论证在有效性方面的弱点。

  11. 乔恩说:“抗议的表达不会改变领导人或大多数成员的意见。”

    你不’不知道,我不知道’过去似乎是这样。有些人想声称“revelations” that 有 authorized major changes 有 just come out of nowhere because the Lord was ready for it. But, look at the sequence of events that 有 led up to the changes. The public pressure comes first, then comes a convienent revelation many years after the changes should 有 taken place.

    看一下圣殿end赋的变化。一些成员的部分捐赠存在重大问题。然后,教会调查了其成员,以评估不满情绪的严重程度和广泛性。然后,教堂进行了修改,以降低其进攻性。

    过去经常穿在手腕和脚踝上的服装。他们变得矮小,因为人们想要那样。给予黑人教士的启示并不是在真空中发生的。教会承受着很大的压力,在这种情况下是来自外部的。与复数婚姻的结束相同。

    没有理由认为,如果我们对教会施加足够的压力,它将改变对妇女和同性恋者的待遇。我曾经支持教会’s treatment of women and gays when I thought those attitudes came from God. But, once I realized that 教堂 is just a man-made organization and could 有 any policies and 教义s it wants, I realized that its treatment of women and gays needed to change. Now that is my opinion, others 有 theirs. But, I can’t sit still and hold my peace when women are oppressed. There are women who think they are not oppressed by the LDS Church. There are Muslim women who do not feel oppressed by Islamic clerics. But, I intend to work for a fair treatment of women, which means that all leadership positions, all priesthood authority, all roles that are acceptable for one gender to do are also acceptable for the other gender, that women no longer 有 to covenant to hearken unto their husbands without a similar covenant placed upon the men to hearken unto their wives.

    您可能会说这些变化是上帝决定的。好吧,摩门教神有一个屈从于社会压力的有趣习惯,所以我要施加社会压力,直到所有人都受到教会的平等对待。完成之后,我’我会独自离开教堂。

  12. 塔蒂亚娜, all you 有 to do is email [email protected],如果您输入了您的姓名,’d like to sign. You’我需要回复您的电子邮件’在添加您的姓名之前,我们会尽快与我们联系,只是因为我们试图确保我们不会’t 有 fake signatures. (I’在添加签名的人中。)约翰只是第一个签署的勇敢男性。

  13. Consider this paragraph from the 信件:
    在就业方面,大多数妇女宁愿选择奢侈商品,也不愿选择必需品。有利于妇女的政策,例如弹性工作时间和男女同工同酬,获得医疗保健,分娩和护理工作的家事假以及负担得起的优质育儿,使我们所有人(单身或伴侣,贫困或特权) -在养育自己和家人方面的更大选择。

    Can we re-write this and add another 文章 to the 信件:

    说到贞操法则,大多数女人都喜欢伴侣中的一种选择,而无论出于何种原因,丈夫都无法珍惜或赋予她们作为人类应有的温暖和感情。对妇女有利的进步,例如避孕措施,增强妇女权能运动,获得医疗保健…

    My point being that just because society has changed, you now 有 more choices on a topic.. that does not mean the comandment (in the case of the LOC) .. or clear distict advise from the prophet (women staying at home with children) should be reconsidered.

    那 paragraph alone makes this “letter” pretty much garbage. For those who believe in 90% of what is laid out in this 信件, keep in mind Satan will sell one lie surrounded by many truths.

  14. While I do not agree with everything that was in 贝克姐妹’的谈话,或信件中的所有内容,作者之前的评论‘Porter Rockwell?’ has completely lost the point, we do 有 choice. If women in the church choose to stay at home as 贝克姐妹 would suggest, then they should not only be free to do so, but should 有 the support to do it. At the same time, if women choose to take an academic path in life, and career, they should also 有 the same freedom and support.

    太频繁,‘the world’ with it’各种压力施加并强调了母亲重返工作岗位,并使子女接受托儿服务,这使那些希望留在家中的人更加困难,并且(’众多责任)。

    与此同时‘the Church’当出于某种原因(财务,理智,其他生活目标等)希望返回教育或工作地点时,妈妈常常会给母亲施加太大的压力,使其无法待在家里。

    这与改变贞操的期望无关。我不确定作者试图推断出有关节育的内容,但是我想从两个来源引述,它们为我认为教会在育儿和节育方面的观点提供了更清晰的定义。

    戈登·欣克利总统(当时的欣克利长老)在1983年的BYU虔诚大会上为年轻人提供了有关计划生育的咨询服务。

    “诡辩使我感到生气,因为后期圣徒女人唯一的光脚就是怀孕了,” he said. “It’s a clever phrase, but it is false. Of course we believe in children. The Lord has told us to multiply and replenish the earth that we might 有 joy in our posterity, and there is no greater joy than the joy that comes of happy children in 好 families. But he did not designate the number, nor has the church. 那 is a sacred matter left to the couple and the Lord.”

    教堂’目前的《通用教学手册》进一步阐明了教会’有关使用节育措施的政策。

    “It is the privilege of married couples who are able to bear children to provide mortal bodies for the spirit children of God, whom they are then responsible to nurture and rear. The decision as to how many children to 有 and when to 有 them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. 教会成员在这件事上不应该互相审判.”

    BYU Health Center Medical Director Robert Romney said doctors at the Health Center do not 有 the 对 to encourage the use of birth control, except to address rare medical concerns, but they are free to prescribe it if a married or soon-to-be married woman or couple requests it.

    “The church doesn’教节育方法的使用,但它也没有’t condemn its use,” Romney said. “教会给予每对夫妇自己的自由代理权,以在他们自己的生活中运用,并鼓励他们向天父寻求议会。”

    罗姆尼说,至少有80%的妇女到健康中心进行婚前检查时都要求某种形式的节育措施。

    我很高兴用官方LDS来源提供的有关这些问题的进一步证据回应对上述任何评论。我相信,尽管别人会说什么或怎么想,教会还是很清楚地说明了这些事情。

    I believe that the mistaken interpretation that 贝克姐妹 was talking to every sister in the church and instructing every one to follow the exact council she gave is the error. As with many talks the talk should 有 been useful to everyone to understand those sisters who 有 chosen to stay at home and raise a family, and specifically to encourage those sisters in their endeavours. I believe her councillors and particularly her second councillor has recently been tasked with, and successfully presented the instruction for sisters who do not find themselves in a ‘traditional’ family environment.

    在会议前一周的一般救济协会会议上,汤普森姐妹提醒我们‘I am a single woman and do not 有 any children of my own.’

    她继续强调说,她曾经从事过社会工作者的工作(我认为这是一个备受尊敬的领域,通常由女性主导)。

    她谈论了她对《家庭宣言》的看法(先前的评论推断这需要更新– I believe it is 正确 as it stands, we just need to see it as Sister Thompson did, as she recounts,

    ‘I was in the Tabernacle when President Gordon B. Hinckley first delivered the proclamation on the family at the general Relief Society meeting in September of 1995. 那 was a great occasion. I felt the significance of the message. I also found myself thinking, “This is a great guide for parents. It is also a big responsibility for parents.” I thought for a moment that it really didn’t pertain too much to me since I wasn’t married and didn’t 有 any children. But almost as quickly I thought, “But it does pertain to me. I am a member of a family. I am a daughter, a sister, an aunt, a cousin, a niece, and a granddaughter. I do 有 responsibilities—and blessings—because I am a member of a family. Even if I were the only living member of my family, I am still a member of God’s family, and I 有 a responsibility to help strengthen other families.”’

    I could go on, and on. I believe that the two talks should be read together. To say that this has not had an impact on many sisters would be unfair, I 有 a close friend who was very upset by 贝克姐妹’s talk, but more because she thought others would hear it and judge her on the perceived teachings. We need to balance the teachings of all our leaders together to understand their full intent and meaning, the same as we cannot rely on individual scriptures but need them in their entirety, as individual, verses, paragraphs or even whole talks or lessons can be misunderstood if not put in context.

    我再次回到通用教学手册,

    ‘教会成员在这件事上不应该互相审判’.

  15. 您完全错失了我的观点,我提出了贞操法则来讲述这一切。.除了说明我的观点外,它与这一点没有关系:社会变革很可能使人犯罪,或违背先知’清晰明确的建议更容易,甚至对其他人的危害也较小,但这并不能改变它在犯罪的事实(或在这种情况下,与先知作对’清晰明确的建议)。任何合理化都是诡辩,简单和简单的。

    那 is what that paragraph in the 信件 says, essentially that since quality day care is now easier to afford, women should feel free to work outside the home as a lifestyle choice, even when it is not a fiscal necessity.

    您分享的报价是100%正确,我完全同意,如果有人拥有不受约束的规矩和对公开表示的自豪感,成员就此事不应评判他人。“correct”教会的一位将领,他们的行为将由我以我能召集的最严厉的方式来判断。那不是在评判一些贫穷的单身母亲,而是在宣讲一个骄傲的人造福音的人,无论它撒满了甜美和繁花似锦的话..这与先知和他/救主背道而驰’s appointed leaders.

  16. Br。罗克韦尔

    虽然它’s not unlikely that some of us could 有 misconstrued your first dramatic point. I don’t know that it’容易误解以下内容:

    “我全心全意地同意,成员们不应就此事对他人进行评判,但是,如果有人拥有不屈不挠的教规……并且以公开“纠正”教会总干事的骄傲而自豪,他们的行为将由我以我可以召集的最严厉的方式来评判。 。”

    那么,您是否采取了这样的立场,即教会的领导者是无误的并且不能使他人犯错误或对他人不敏感?它’s interesting how LDS culture seems uncertain about the fallibility of the prophet and other leaders. It appears that some, like you, feel there is no 对 to dissent. Is it acceptable to disagree with the likes of you on matters of principle or do you believe your interpretation of leaders’ speech inherently 正确?

  17. I personally believe the Prophet will never lead 教堂 astray in these latter days.

    I also believe that we 有 been warned repeatedly about all forms of sophistry, and I read that open 信件 as a crafty form of sohpistry. It is a piece of sophistry that could give a woman who was struggling with staying home vs. working outside the home some degree of rationalization that may help push her to make a decision that is counter to the Prophet’在该主题上有明确而果断的立场。因此,我认为公开信是危险的,充满糖衣的邀请,促使人们对我们的先知的一条简单指令进行合法化和合理化的个人抗命。

    As to dissent, if I 有 not gotten a personal testimony about a concept taught by an officer of the church, particularly when presented in General Conference, it is on me to pray until I get a testimony (after living the concept) or live with it. It is not on me to attempt to get others to share the doubt of the Lord’被宣告,一切都是为了让自己的个人缺点更好。

    有时候听到真相会很痛

    Although it seems impossible for them to consider, it is certainly possible that some of 贝克姐妹’s detractors MAY be wrong on this, and she may be 对. .Since she was talking over the pulpit in General Conference, and the Prophet has not seen fit to 正确 here, I am putting my money on 贝克姐妹.. as distasteful as my decision may be to the politically 正确 crowd out there.

  18. 搬运工,

    this is not a case of hearing truth, from you, and being hurt. nor is this a case of hearing truth from a general authority and being hurt. what we 有 is simply another example of a leader of the church giving counsel or suggestions that just dont fit for all people. they dont feel 对. they are not 对. they offend.

    your morality and loyalty is such that you do not criticize the leaders of the church, even if that criticism is true. others do not 有 the same moral standards, and that does not make them wrong nor does it make you wrong. rather, it shows some diversity.

    多发性硬化症。贝克(Beck)的评论远远超出了预期,她对观众的多样性一无所知。这封信包含多样性,并接受多样性的精神和深刻本质。贝克重重踩踏着它,然后又回到了她舒适的粉红色椅子上。

    再次。她分享的不是真理,而是观点和理想。关于养育子女或成年女性的真相是一个光谱。

    至于脱衣勇士。因为这个原因,我喜欢它– it shows that women and members are free to draw their own lessons from anecdotes and scriptures. the 信件 did not say becks conclusion was the wrong one. they simply showed their own lesson learned from that story. hallelujah. let us all be so bold as to draw our own conclusions, after all, isnt reading the scriptures or myths meant to 有 personal application, or has the application of every story been correlated?

  19. 多样性不会胜过服从..从来没有做过..永远不会做。

    If 教堂 is a social club, I guess diversity of thought is paramount. If you view it as a means to work out your Eternal Salvation, then diversity is WAY down the 清单 my friend. Note that I accept 克里斯ts teaching to treat all his children with kindness, so there is never any excuse for not embracing all peoples, so don’除了拥抱别人的善意和接受之外,我的言论被错误地认为是什么。我不会接受的是拒绝先知’强烈而明确的指示,因为“it does not feel 对”甚至更糟,将其他人拖到您身边。当您选择拒绝主时,请给自己和圣徒们一个忙’s Prophet’换句话说,接受您的违抗,不要试图合理化或使用诡辩来以某种方式制造仅存在黑白区域的灰色区域。

  20. 搬运工,

    多样性与唐纳德·特朗普对有袋动物的服从关系密切。

    it is unkind to ignore the realities of individuals. it is unkind to heap guilt on others simply because of the circumstances they may 有 inherited, or that they chose with 好 faith.

    具有讽刺意味的是,证词是基于感情的东西,而不是科学证据。但是,当这些相同的感觉与黑白教学相矛盾时,这些感觉对您是无效的。

    谢谢你的建议。我确信你的判断是基于仁慈。

    搬运工, thanks again for your comments. i think your reaction shows and emphasizes the range of reactions that others may 有 to becks comments. and more, i think you reinforce the notion that the comments themselves are not as important as the source.

  21. 明确地说,我的批评不是关于任何人的个人和私人选择。

    What I am crusading against is the effort to elevate these personal choices above the clear and decisive words of the prophet and the officers of 教堂 .

  22. 有趣。

    i see a formidable effort on the part of the women that drafted this 信件. they are not promoting personal choices above anothers choice. they are promoting individual worth and dignity.

  23. 贝克’s comments reflect inherent beliefs in the church, whether or not they are stated as 教义.

    –尽可能多地生孩子。
    –A clean and tidy house reveals a clean and 对eous spirit.
    –在家庭以外工作的妇女违反了她们的盟约角色。
    –女人很虚弱,必须限制自己的外部活动,以免疲倦。
    –外观揭示了精神上的卓越。
    –Failing in housekeeping and/or faltering in childrearing reveals lack of 对eousness.
    –Any such failures must be 正确ed and therefore resulting guilt from failures is appropriate.
    –妇女的存在是为男人和孩子服务。
    –踏出教堂的妇女’规定的角色是不公正的。

    不管人们是否能指出有关这些事情的章节,它们都会渗透到整个教会的性别行为中。

    如果你读了这些东西而没有’t see anything wrong with them, it shows that you subscribe to a nineteenth century view of gender that is long gone. These are not measures of 对eousness, but rather cultural constructs long past their time. Do you want to see how horrible they really are? Just examine the lives of FLDS women who submit in all such things.

  24. 安德鲁,你看不见所有树木的森林。贝克都不’s talk nor the response are check 清单 s of independent items.

    我们目睹了LDS领导人努力减少性别角色。他们正在散布对家庭衰落的恐惧。当然,实际上,离婚率在下降。流产下降了。非婚外怀孕下降了。性病下降(犹他州除外)。

    Nonetheless, LDS leaders 有 harnessed the fear that they stoked to discriminate against gays and lesbians. Imposing the tyranny of the majority on a vulnerable minority, our religion has become once again the agent of intolerance.

    贝克姐妹’谈话只是将性别刻板印象强加于成员的最新一步。不幸的是,这种对女性的看法不能满足大多数家庭的需求。

    Most 摩门教徒 mothers are participating in the labor market. 人y 摩门教徒 women are single. Others are childless. By the time we add all these people up, they happen to comprise the overwhelming majority of 摩门教徒 women.

    当然,其中有些人会为自己辩护以免被称为无知。贝克’谈话暗示大多数摩门教徒女人不’t know. What 摩门教徒 Women Know is a response to 贝克 in the context of the larger struggle.

    戈登·欣克利的替代品’s motherhood stereotype is to treat women with respect. 那 begins by trusting women’s own judgement. Women are much more likely to arrive at a 好 choice for themselves and their families than some authority who does not 有 to live with the consequences of his or her advice.

    妇女是最重要的人类。他们可以做出自己的选择。

    那’讨论的内容。女人需要自由,因为当事情出错时,朱莉·贝克和戈登·欣克利获胜’无法拿起碎片。

  25. 波特,我知道跟随先知很重要。问题在于,任何此类主张都意味着我们视为先知的人们的建议实际上满足了实际需求。

    The differences between Julie 贝克 and the signers of 女人知道什么 is actually not a matter of opinions. Most of those items are empirical questions. We can investigate which way of life will generate a better quality of life measured by indicators such as child mortality, life expectation, venereal disease rates, mental health indicators, and bankruptcy rates.

    Not all of the above 有 been answered but there are some answers readily available. We do know, for example, that less hypocrisy about sex and gender leads to less venereal disease.

    当弗兰克·韦德金(Frank Wedekind),西格蒙德·弗洛伊德(Sigmund Freud)和贝特朗·罗素(Bertrand Russell)将公开和诚实的性讨论合法化时,性病率随卖淫而暴跌。

    If there is such a thing as historical precedence then the campaign to impose overly narrow roles on women portend of little 好.

    You might 有 heard in media reports that American venereal disease rates are currently spreading fastest in Utah. 那’这恰恰是宗教领袖们试图强加性别角色时的期望。任何此类努力都将招致否认和虚伪,部分是由像您这样的人实施的,这将导致更加危险的性行为。

    那 seems to be reality and reality trumps obedience any day. The only question is whether 摩门教徒s will 有 to resort to hypocrisy once more so that they can meet the needs of their families or whether it will be possible to discuss these matters in the open.

    在我看来,戈登·欣克利(Gordon Hinckley)发挥了先知的威望’的办公室就行了。他对性别的不切实际态度最终将不仅伤害无数摩门教徒,他们将继续遵守他的训诫,还将破坏他的职务。但是那’s a price that his successors will 有 to pay.

  26. 海尔穆特

    Your propositions are all very 好 if you were refering to a political leader or popularity contest winner.

    但是,您在谈论精神领袖。

    If you do believe in his authority, then you can choose to follow him or not (obedience). If you do not believe in his authority then you 有 no dog in the fight, and frankly and with all due respect, your opinions are not really relevant to his spiritual leadership.

  27. 搬运工,

    您的语气表现为不必要的磨擦和对抗,并且肯定与您自称拥护和捍卫的基督教特质相反。

    您是福勒的经典3级人物’s发展阶段:毫无疑问的正统观念,凡事都被明确定义为黑白。

    希望您的眼睛有一天会看到这一生中鲜艳的色彩和美丽。一旦完成,您会惊讶于周围的每个人变得多么聪明…

  28. 搬运工,给我休息。如果hellmut不相信他的权威,那么他的观点就不重要了吗?自封为什么时候的法治和理性?多数民众赞成在高飞。

    hellmut并没有争议他的权威,他是在指出威权主义和他的领导才能的成果。水果对某些人来说似乎烂了。也许您可以对领导层进行不同的解释,但我希望您根据产品而不是自我宣布的权威的价值来进行解释。

    hellmut went on a mission and lived in the church. what more does one 有 to do to 有 a fighting dog?

  29. “您的语气显得不必要和磨难”:
    I am addressing people who 有 gone onto the internet and publicly posted their opinions, they should be prepared to defend them. If you want to participate in the free marketplace of ideas be prepared to be challenged. I will challenge folks who claim to 有 a better way to run the Lord’的教会,或者服从是可选的。

    “Wiser”: 我只是胆怯得足以相信我永远不会比上帝的先知聪明,而我在互联网上偶然遇到的其他任何人也不会比先知聪明。 I will 有 to settle for the simple pure joy that comes from obedience (not perfect by any means, but I am at least trying) instead of the clearly higher form of enlightenment that can be found on internet blogs.

    真相有美..它可以是黑白的。有些事情是真实的,另一些事情则不是。我猜你是个混蛋,世界迷雾了& grey world can also be beautiful.. but I am pretty sure the scriptures warned about being tossed to-and-fro by (my words here: wonderfully colorful) 教义s of man.

    时间到了,基督“brought it”。他将货币兑换商赶出圣殿的经文记载显然是不“politically 正确”. I do not owe a faux civility to those who hold their vain notions and false 教义s above the simple and clear “bright line”先知的指示。

  30. “我只是胆怯得足以相信我永远不会比上帝的先知聪明,而我在互联网上偶然遇到的其他任何人也不会比先知聪明。”

    鉴于过去的先知在某些特定主题上的智慧历史,这有点令人恐惧。

    我认为在一个人,包括一个先知,在所有事情上都以极高的智慧来相信一个人是有危险的。当然,有些人在某些事情上比较明智,但是关于地球上智慧的想法有些令人恐惧。历史证明了狂热是如何变成事实的,而且还不够漂亮。

  31. I am talking about apples, you are talking about oranges. We will likely never 有 any agreement on this, but I can’不允许您误解我的论点。尽管很可能缺乏对我的立场的理解是我的错,因为我的写作不够清楚。

    我不是在谈论先知’作为一个人的判断,我是在说我相信他是耶和华的领袖’的教会在地上,并且在对教会的任何重大事项上都可以争辩和直接宣扬。这就是为什么我接受他的话是真理,并接受他对与教会有关的事务的判断,远远超过我的判断(并在适当的尊重下,也归您所有)。如果你不这样做’不能接受他为现代启示的先知,那很好,我随他的法特瓦牛肉’我尊重这一点,没有问题。我不穿’自称是相信他为主的人’这位地球上的发言人,但仍然觉得可以像对待自助餐一样对待自己的话,选择和选择要接受哪些理论,以及拒绝哪些(不方便的)理论是很好的。

    我个人认为,先知不会在以后的日子里带领教会误入歧途。先知很清楚,大会上所说的话被认为是教会的正式职位,本质上是现代的经文。因此,当教会的一位将领在GC的讲坛上讲话时(没有得到纠正),辩论结束了,剩下的唯一决定权就是我是否服从。有些事情我选择不服从,因为我是个基本人,远非完美。但是我不’通过考虑主的信息来使我的抗命合理化’s servants to be flawed. It is apperantly not within realm of possibility in the minds of the 贝克 bashers that she is 对, and they could be wrong (I think that is called pride, it is mentioned in the scriptures once or twice). They are certain that their judgement on this matter is more perfect then the President of the Relief Society.

    我相信先知是一个男人,而不是一个完美的男人。我可能会比他更快地完成一个Soduku难题,并且可能会在手球上击败他。.但是我可以确定,当他为教会说话时,他在说主的旨意,我只是闭嘴并做出个人决定。服从..或不服从。

    我发现荒谬的东西正在运行到互联网上,并发表了一篇理智的论文’决定不服从,并试图影响他人以拒绝这些明确而明确的指示。

    那 is wrong, and counter to the way of the Lord.

  32. 嘿,我读这个话题有点晚了,但是我想评论波特·洛克威尔说的一句话。他说“The prophet has been clear that what is said in General Conference is considered official positions of 教堂 , and is 本质上是现代圣经. So when a general officer of 教堂 speaks over the pulpit in GC (and is not 正确ed) the debate is over, and the only thing left to decide is whether or not I will obey.”

    这是约翰前不久发布的,是教堂的官方新闻稿。标题是“接近摩门教义” and it says, “并非教会领袖的过去或现在的每句话都必定构成教义。一位领导人在单一场合发表的单一声明通常代表一种个人观点,虽然经过深思熟虑,但并不意味着对整个教会具有正式约束力。第一任总统(先知和他的两个顾问)和十二使徒定额组(教会的第二最高管理机构)在上帝的启发下共同制定了教义,该教义在教会的官方出版物中始终被宣扬。该学说存在于圣经的四大“标准著作”(《圣经》,《摩门经》,《教义和盟约》以及《大价钱的明珠》),官方宣言和声明以及《信仰条款》中。孤立的陈述通常是脱离上下文的,从而扭曲了它们的原始含义。”

    根据本新闻稿,“本质上是现代圣经”是标准作品,官方声明和声明。很显然,会谈中的言论可能基于先前确立的学说,但正如波特所相信的那样,在会谈中所说的一切都不是学说或现代经文。 BYU向我讲授了同样的原则,即会议的少尉版应该放在标准作品旁边的墙上,因为现在它也是“standard work.”这总是让我有点困扰,所以当这个新闻稿出来澄清什么是真实的时,我感到宽慰。“doctrine”教堂所在的地方以及可以找到的地方。

    These individuals 有 a 对 to feel the way they do, and according to the churchs own press release, not every word stated by the current Relief Society President was 教义, it could 有 been well considered, thought out opinion as stated by the press release. I’我确信她说的话很好,但是认为她说的话(因为它是在一般会议上)构成了“本质上是现代圣经” is not 正确, as stated by the church’s own press release.

    I hope 教堂 can continue to clarify this topic as it causes a lot of confusion within the church.

  33. Good points, except she was parroting what the brethren 有 said repeatedly and without deviation for as long as I can remember. The message is typically from a boring old white guy in a suit, but this was different, I am wondering if some of adverse reaction is because it came from a “波莉完美莫莉摩门教徒”所以有争吵的因素。

    The 教义 that she preached was simply not substantially different than any previous positions.

    就像您将要争辩的那样,这不是脱离上下文的无赖言论。这是教会领导者征服妇女的全教会范围的系统性努力的一部分…。再说一遍,也许只是上帝’s will.

  34. 搬运工,

    我开始认为您只是在伪造其中一些职位。你是真的吗?你是认真的吗?

    did you really say there is a catfight factor? speaking of internets, be glad you 有 the internet protecting you because those cats you are referring to would rip your head off if you dared say something so ridiculous in their presence.

    yeah. you are 对 that it is nothing the men 有nt always said. that does not make it less offensive. just frequent. and to hear it from the leader of the womens institution may be alarming for some people. perhaps its just one more reminder of the way the men 有 taken control of the relief society, first the money, then the manuals, then the leaders, now the message. in caving to the men of the church, the relief society no longer is female organization, it is now a priesthood organization with a lot of women on the rolls.

    resisting the final usurp of the organization is not a catfight, it may just be the 对 thing to do.

  35. Or how about this- you swallow your pride and accept the will of your loving Father in Heaven, that may be the 对 thing to do.

    I am glad you confirmed that 贝克姐妹 is squarely in the center of LDS 文件trine with her remarks. Now we can start to reason. If you 有 a problem with her remarks, you 有 a problem with the 教义 (not her). If you 有 a problem with the 教义, then you 有 a problem with the concept that the Savior is alive today and leading he Church through his Prophet on the earth. 那 by the way is a yes or no question. He either is.. or isn’t.

    所以现在,就像每一个教义一样,一旦你接受了持续的启示,你就不会’不能决定是否正确,只能决定是否要提交。我说你应该“Man”并承认你将偏离主’s prescribed path on the issue of working outside the home for personal fulfillment, and do it. But I ask that you quit trying to make the 教义 conform to you. Accept that you are prideful, and move on. Oh, while you are at it, get 对 with the fact that if your kids don’t turn out the way you wish, you will 有 to live with the fact that you choose self fulfilling work outside the home over your children’的公司(仅涉及在非经济原因家庭中工作的妇女。教会非常清楚它会强迫那些为经济原因而被迫工作的妇女。)我希望您的孩子过得不错,并且您不会因您的决定而困扰,但如果您愿意,请记住,先知及其教会的官员曾警告过您。

  36. whew. 好 to know there is a plan b from god and his men, the economic need plan. ummmmm. i didnt say anything about staying home. your assumptions are drastic. though, your humility is a welcome contrast to my pride. thanks.

  37. 搬运工:

    Maybe you could step down from your Rameumptom for a second and 清单 en to some advice. Here it is:

    “Be nice to people”

    那’是的。拿它做什么’值得。与别人的判断相比,与人相处要好得多。它还将帮助您结识更多朋友。减轻谴责的压力。哎呀要求人们做事,不要’t tell them, everyone has their free agency. Ask them. 玛雅大象 is a 好 guy, and a friend. He doesn’不应受到这种不好的对待。无论如何,您的行为有多基督化?请把您的批评带到其他地方。

  38. 大部分的陈述“rebuttal” 信件 don’t seem to be responding to anything that Julie 贝克 actually said in her talk. Rather, the entire 信件 seems to be responding to unnecessary, uncharitable misinterpretations of 贝克’s words…
    With all this bending over backwards to find something to disagree with or be offended by in Julie 贝克’的谈话,似乎一群LDS女人只是itchin’进行了一场斗争,并以此演讲为借口,表达了长期以来对女权主义者的不满。

    Agreed. It read to me like a group of people who *wanted* to take offense, and decided to post a public 信件 to show just how self-righteously aggrieved they are.

    不管人们是否能指出有关这些事情的章节,它们都会渗透到整个教会的性别行为中。

    I did not quote the 清单 of points mentioned. I think 辅助触摸 is really misguided if s/he thinks those are attitudes which “permeate the church.”实际上,诽谤名单是我最大的粪便’我今天读过’因为我阅读了整个主题,所以说了很多。

    玛雅大象 is a 好 guy, and a friend. He doesn’t deserve this kind of bad treatment.

    We must be reading different posts. In the threads that I 有 slogged through, I 有 never been impressed by his friendly demeanor. I’在这种情况下,我不会故意将ME挑出来。一世’m just positive the people who read/interact with him on this blog must 有 a greater sample from which to judge. I believe his interlocutor deserves at least as much knuckle-rapping for his behavior.

    我真的很喜欢mormonstories播客,并偶尔来到博客中思考“I’m sure there be 好, intelligent discussion in the comments on an episode.”然后我来到这里,并记住了为什么我总是犯错。

    在这些评论中,rancor和硫酸仅次于指责和指责。

    这正是我在90年代中期留下的soc.religion.mormon和alt.religion.mormon那种胡扯。它 ’,很痛心地看到同样的旧的行为,但在新的场地。

    I’直到我忘记评论的内容,然后再返回以获取更多信息。

    /我在泥里滚
    /哇!

  39. Just to be clear, I am not judging any one person for working outside the home. I 有 no idea of personal circumstances, and don’t judge that way.

    I AM judging those make a decision to disobey (which I am certinaly guilty of)but then are so prideful that they publicly post rationaliztions for their decision, and wrapped in a loving cloak of sisterhood and empathy, trash a general officer of 教堂 just because she has the gaul to stand up in General Conference and repeat some 教义, and maybe even lovingly call out some sisters to re-think their life decisions.

    我认为这种公共行为不应受到挑战。

  40. 对于波特,
    AMEN! You are 对 on and it is a joy to read a voice of reason in all this worldly jibberish. I love 贝克姐妹’s talk and 有 respect for the divine roles we 有 received long before 世界 was. The gospel hasn’改变了,今天传授的是与亚当夏娃相同的基本福音。有趣的是一些男人和女人在声称自己活跃的同时如何变得不活跃。我想大家“list” is stepping on dangerous ground and I want to stay as far as possible away from them. I applaud you Porter for being able to stay calm and 有 a intelligent comments explaining true 教义. I hope some of the women who think they know will 有 a change of heart because of your efforts. I for one love being a woman, love raising children, love staying at home with them, love picking up toys after my children, love supporting my husband, love living the gospel to its fullest as explained in 贝克姐妹’s talk.

  41. 我今天在F听到一个证词&一个聪明的年轻母亲与Sis会面。贝克’的谈话。她评论说,当她上大学时,她有一个激动人心的职业计划。她没有’t say what it was, but clearly it was something she was working very hard for. She said that her plans changed when she got her patriarchal blessing in college that said that she should focus on preparing to be a 好 wife and mother.

    It’s 好 that the church says that women can make decisions on their own, encouraging them to seek out the Lord’的智慧。但是,当一个人,尽管是先祖,介入了这样的顾问,教会教义的社会/教义结构就变得复杂了。

    Even if one accepts the word of patriarchal blessings as direct from God, then that counsel is for that individual only. But when it is shared as a life-changing experience in a public testimony, it has impact on others. Women 清单 ening today who traveled a similar path, forgoing education and career training for 传统的 priorities felt confirmed in their decision, whether it was 对 for them or not. Women who were excited about and pursuing their personal career plans, were challenged and subtly told that perhaps their plans are not 对. Young women (those that were 清单 ening) heard yet another message that their only role in life is to be a wife and mother and any other choice is outside of the Lord’s way.

    在教会里不能例外。不支持个性。我们可以谈论例外和个人’是个人启示和指导的机会,但如果没有 ’如果不符合已经提出的公式,那是错误的。这位族长的影响已经远远超出了他所传达的个人忠告,教会结构中的一切都一遍又一遍地鼓励这种事情。

    人y of the faithful suggest that new members are not ready for the truth of church history because they need “milk before meat.”我建议,与新成员在个人启示和指导方面需要导航的混乱水域相比,这没什么。

  42. I thank Porter for his insight. We all 有 choices. There are many women of the church who are successful in both the workplace and at home. There are great women in the church who 有 never married or had children who do great things to further the work of the Lord. It is the reponsibility of each member to work out their own salvation. This is such a personal thing. No one can tell each individual what is 对 for them. Our prophet and other authorities give us loving council and guidelines. We are free to choose what we will do for ourselves. We will stand alone before the Lord and only He will be our judge. Each talk given in general conference should give us each an opportunity to see where we are. What are we doing well, what do we need to work on, where can we improve? We should be united as members to help each other to gain eternal happiness. When we judge one another we lose our selves.

  43. 好吧,我是那封信的签字人–会议演讲让我感到非常难过–它对妇女及其真正关心的事物缺乏怜悯和理解。坦白说,我不’我不认识教会内外的许多妇女(如果有的话)’要深深地爱他们的孩子,并在今生和为他们而来的生活中寻求最好的,
    我试图成为贝克姐姐多年来倡导的那种母亲,这对我的家人根本没有用–我出于必要而退出了工作队伍,但发现这对我的孩子在情感上和精神上以及其他方面都是最好的。大多数研究实际上不’展现出工作的孩子比留在家中的母亲的优势–但是,对于在家中或工作岗位上表现出满意和支持的母亲所抚养的孩子,它们确实显示了优势。我认为能够待在家里真是太好了–那有很多快乐–但事实是,世界上大多数母亲和教会都在工作,至少是在他们的母亲生活中。我认为这是有争议的,世界上所有贝克姐妹的演讲都没有’不会因为它是基于其他因素而改变它,例如经济,增加妇女的机会等等。她和弟兄们实际上将无法使时光倒流– and I do not think that all the rhetoric in 世界 is going to change the demographic changes that are occurring, for 好 or ill – they should start talking more about how to support families, mothers, children and fathers and strengthening families spiritually, emotionally, financially, etc. I 有 no problem with the Proclamation on the Family in this regard. I just 有 a problem w3ith 贝克姐妹 trying to take away personal revelation and personal responsibility that we all 有 for each of our family’s well being

  44. So this is what it has now come to? Writing 驳斥s to Conference Talks. I can’等待下一个GC和相应的网站,

    “www.WhattheGeneralAuthoritiessaidthatwaswrong.com。”
    既然猫已经从书包里拿出来了,它在哪里结束?

    Or, was 贝克姐妹 singled out because she is a woman? And not a Prophet, Seer and Revelator? Is she an easy target even for the women of the church?

    您知道,在任何宗教组织中,都有一种倾向认为,如果我做得比别人更好,我将获得更高的报酬。这个问题妨碍了犹太人,因为法律的执行比法律的精神更为重要。我在教堂里看到很多。莫莉·摩门教徒(Molly 摩门教徒)和彼得·普里斯特(Peter Priesthood)的陈规定型观念是出于一个人要成为最好的摩门教徒的良好想法。

    不是每个人都能或想要实现这一目标。如果以某种方式将其作为标准,那么我们中很少有人能够实现。当我们根据该标准和我们认为正在实践的人们来衡量自己时,我们可能会落空。

    I think that the teachings ofthe church as that we all 有 a different level of perfection, that we all 有 agency to worship and perform our church duties as we see fit.

    我希望我们能够消除那些假冒的陈规定型观念,正如欣克利总统所说,“尽我们所能。”

    but, really, this kind of campaigning and 驳斥 is unbecoming and a slippery slope.

  45. I find it interesting that a 好 portion of the women who signed the 驳斥 信件 有 the hypened last name. They were unwilling to take their husbands name upon them. Young men who may be getting married and your partner will not take your last name–跑山!您的生活充满了女权主义的悲痛。

    我推荐这些女人读“正确照顾和喂养丈夫” by Dr. Laura.

    The man is the head of the family just as 克里斯t is the head of 教堂 .

    抱怨的妇女需要加强。

  46. 我认为它’不仅迫使先知和总督做了’t get up and 正确 贝克姐妹 on her talk, but they 有 also proven the talk to be 教义 by having it be taught in Relief Society and Priesthood meetings throughout 教堂 . It further shows that the premise for 贝克姐妹’说话是福音的基础,还是“Perfect World”他们希望每个法定人数或病房救济协会都可以讨论和理解作为现代教会学说要实现的目标。

    As I 有 read 贝克姐妹’s talk, the WWKN’s response–听起来像是电台或一些俱乐部,甚至“Secret Combination”,以及整个博客,我非常感谢波特·洛克威尔(Porter Rockwell)这样的人,他们能够坦率而准确地谈论事实。

    We all 有 the 对 to choose and while some choose one way for personal circumstances little understood by others and others choose even differently from that, our simple challenge is to “choose the 对”, which is consistent with the 教义s of the Gospel. Unfortunately, we 有 the shortfall of being imperfect as mortals and choosing poorly at times, but we make even a poorer choice when we try to defend the original poor choice or sin.

    Public outcry or criticism of 贝克姐妹’的谈话正是–为那些宁愿尝试重新建立理论或“perfect world” or gospel foundation and principles to meet their lifestyle, allowing them to give up trying and thereby helping them feel that their poor choices are okay by rationalizing the truth. Everyone that has signed the 清单 has in effect made that poor choice and has potentially given up trying for the “perfect world” 贝克姐妹 outlined by proclaiming they are in support of re-establishing 教义 over 贝克姐妹 and which the leaders of 教堂 has felt so important that it be re-discussed in our ward meetings to make clear–演讲是任何人的工作原理和理论基础,不能被任何人合理化或纠正。

    贝克姐妹’s Talk was discussed just this week in a St. George ward where I and my family were visiting with my Grandmother. My wife, Mother of 3, a truly remarkable woman, and my Grandmother, Mother 4, Grandmother of 21, and Great-Grandmother of 43, and absolute example for all, 有 both agreed that the talk was intended for the sake of reminding all members of the church–men and women alike–母亲的重要性’在幸福或福音计划中的角色。显然,每个人都有不同的情况,这需要对如何最好地遵守该学说有个人的启示,但应留给那个人–个人的,不是公开的。的“What Women Know” group has tried to suggest that varying circumstances ought to be the premise for the 教义 and the not what 贝克姐妹 has represented. When has the gospel ever taught that something less than perfection should ever be strived for? Never!!! God, for instance, is a title of perfection. What are we striving to become???

    这个教会最终将屈服于社会压力的立场是胡说八道。马丁·哈里斯(Martin Harris)没有’听不到或接受主’s response to 2 of his pleas for the 116 pages of manuscripts and where did that leave us today, the children of Israel were not ready for the higher law of the priesthood and were thereby sentenced to the law of Moses and where did that leave them. My father received third degree burns on his legs and forearms from an exploding radiator, but not where his garments were and what would the results 有 possibly been if we were still wearing garments to our ankles and wrists–我们可以改变教会,但是法律所依据的教义带来的祝福也会明显改变,所以我们应该希望改变,还是要遵守?

    Obvious circumstances throughout time 有 shown that the Lord will only reveal his perfect truths to his children once they are READY to follow that 文件trine and not before–看看先知约瑟夫·史密斯和世界状况的历史时,美国就准备了恢复的福音,而不是以前,这与神职人员的扩大相同。如果我们公开组织起来放弃或批评通过祭司职权(无论是地方当局还是一般当局)而被召唤的,持久的和分开的,我们也将使主担心尚未揭示的真理以及是否或我们不是为跟随这些真理而得到的祝福做好准备,无论这些真理是个人的还是教会的。

    我希望,按照欣克利总统的要求尽力而为的母亲,会得到他们的教会领袖和丈夫,兄弟,姐妹,父亲,尤其是母亲的支持,而不会因此而感到内gui。让’s hold ourselves accountable for our own actions and not judge each other or impose our own interpretations of gospel 教义 upon others even if many fall under the same circumstances and recognize the role of our church leaders–提醒我们,无论今生还是来生,所有人都能实现的敬虔/完美。

  47. 回覆:“这个教会最终将屈服于社会压力的立场是胡说八道。”

    教会从不屈服于社会压力。它只是通过获得启示并跟随它来应对新挑战。如果这种启示导致的变化与社会压力所推动的方向一致,那就不是’t是由于社会压力,而是因为主的意愿就是要以这种方式应对眼前的挑战。反之亦然,就像教会在面对社会压力时一样,主让教会继续前进是很容易的。 “alternate lifestyle” phenomenon.

  48. 我是一个三岁以下的年轻母亲,三岁以下(请不要’不审判我)。我对做夫妻的压力和压力有些了解。我每天都感觉到!有时候我觉得我’我会发疯,有时候,老实说,我认为我发疯了!但是,有些时刻是纯粹的兴高采烈和幸福的时刻,’那些时刻告诉我’此时m在正确的位置。但是,如果我’老实说,有几天我希望自己能在屋外工作。不断的赞美和赞美肯定会使压力和压力减轻一些负担。在家里,你不’总是得到那个。有时这使它变得困难,甚至使我的思维受挫。但是,因为我内心深处,我想做我天父想要我做的事,做他要我做的一切,所以精神使我重新定向,并且知道天父正在给我必要的经历,我感到安宁使我变得更好,帮助我变得像他和我的救主耶稣基督。最终,我想回到他们的家,与他们永远生活在一起。我知道天父知道这一点,所以他没有让我自己去独自照顾并独自解决所有问题,而是’先知给了他,圣灵给了他’s向他(和我们所有人)透露了他的计划,然后又通过各种方式向我(以及我们所有人)透露了它的计划。相信上帝知道一切,他知道某些经验会更快地塑造我,并使我更加完善。那些经验以及对这些经验的指导和指导将被揭示。通常,就像我自己一样’我很想选择另一种方式。它’更轻松,更富有魅力,更即时获得回报,但它’只是我自然的一面而已。但是我’通过启示,通过先知,并从精神上证实了该先知的有效性,“天生的男人(和女人,对于那些可能挂在嘴上的人)是上帝的敌人,自亚当堕落以来一直是上帝,它将永远永远,除非他屈服于圣灵的诱惑并摆脱天生的人,通过主基督的赎罪成为圣人,并成为一个小孩子,顺服,温顺,谦卑,耐心,充满爱心,乐意服从主认为适合施加于他身上的所有事物,即使是一个孩子顺服了父亲。”为了变得像他们一样,我必须推迟那些有时对我来说感觉更好的事情,去做主为我计划的事情,以便我能获得最好的结果并找到真正的成功。无论出于何种原因,从我有限的角度来看,感觉甚至逻辑上似乎都比我的方法好得多。谢天谢地的证词使我保持扎根!那个见证就是天父最清楚,如果我们真的对自己诚实,而不只是试图合理地以自己的方式做某事,我们就可以感受到并听到主的声音,借着他的灵和所拣选的领导者给予指导和指导。贝克姐妹’谈话对我来说就是这样的时候。我听到了主的声音,我非常非常强烈地感受到了这种精神,我可能会补充说我的心被刺破了。我需要进行一些更改。然后’s okay. I’我不完美。我知道。但是,我也感谢天父提供指导以进行必要的更改,以使我变得比现在更好。再说一次’s okay that I’我现在还不完美。它’是一个过程,而天父对此表示同意,而我们的领导人也对此表示同意。可以预期的是,我们正在朝着完美的目标努力…但是实现目标的唯一方法是明确目标。显然那是贝克姐妹’的目标,当然在某些情况下可能需要进行一些修改,并且这种精神可以而且会自己在这些情况下提供指导。但它’关于对自己和上帝诚实。听贝克姐妹 ’与精神的交谈只会振作起来,并在我回到天父的路上帮助我。以我的精神为指导,我知道哪里可能会有例外,但没有必要冒犯。如果我是单身,或者我有一定的财务状况,’当然,必须对该律师进行一些调整。但是,如果我们的情况如此,则有可能朝着理想的目标努力,而不是必须改变生活方式,以使其与之相符,以便获得最佳结果。如果我们能取得最好的结果“have”对课程进行修改。但是那’是我们诚信的体现。我们是否只是因为我们想用自己的方式来证明自己是对的?还是我们真的在尝试弘扬律师的精神,只是出于绝对必要而修改。因此,如果我们诚实地努力并忠于律师,我们’我们已经给出了建议,并在必要时和地点进行了调整(再次,精神将直接将其告知我们),因此无需冒犯或内。但是,当我们寻求不遵行耶和华的旨意,而是遵行自己的意志或世界的旨意时,可能会有些冒犯或内。我认为,这可能是一个反思,诚实地,全神贯注地真正思考的好时机,看看您的立场,诚实地可以改变的地方以及主对您的存在感到满意的时候。

  49. 我对贝克姐妹的批评话让我感到非常难过 ’s inspired talk. I am a mother of 4 small children that lives daily in the grind of motherhood. I as greatly encouraged by her words to be better and to be kinder to myself. I did not take offense whatsoever to her words. I felt the Spirit of the Lord pouring out while 清单 ening to her speak and then again when I read it in the Ensign. I knew that Heavenly Father had inspired her to share those words and testimony to us women to help us through the hard times of mothering. I felt her talk spoke directly to my heart about not giving up and by focusing on the things that I was doing 对 to teach my children about Heavenly Father and 克里斯t. I felt reminded to not focus on my faults and the things I did wrong in my mothering. I know that Heavenly Fathers loves each one of his daughters and that the leaders of 教堂 有 been called and set apart by the power of the priesthood. Please strengthen your testimonies and your relationship with our Heavenly Father. Pray for an eternal perspective to help you see the 好 that came from 贝克姐妹’的谈话。我知道她说的每句话都是圣灵的启发和指导。

  50. The 信件 states:

    “我们拥有精神和智慧赋予生命的力量,并拒绝荣耀一切形式的暴力。摩尔门经的故事使我们充满了无法言状的悲伤,那里有2,000多名年轻士兵,他们的母亲教导他们相信对上帝的信仰将在他们杀死其他母亲的战斗中保住他们’孩子们。这不是成功的故事。这是人类关系失败和战争恐怖的故事。

    那 sounds 好, but consider those mothers. Some were the wives and daughters of the men and probably women who when seeing their enemies about to kill them “在他们面前俯伏在地上,并开始求主的名;当拉曼派人开始倒在他们身上,并开始用剑杀死他们时,他们就处于这种态度。”与伊拉克战争不同,自卫战争是合理的。

    所以为什么不羞辱那些母亲,为什么不’t you try to put yourselves in their position? Did you lose your husband or father or brother who sacrificed their lives without resistance for your freedom? Honour them as you probably would 有 done the same!

    格伦

  51. I too feel 贝克姐妹s comments were patronizing and condescending. She could do nothing less than spout the company line at a General conference. I 有 just gone online with a store that has messages that are pertinent to these issues. You may find them interesting and a lot of fun. It is located at
    http://www.cafepress.com/postmormonstore
    人y thanks
    丹尼尔·斯怀林根
    蒙大拿州Bozeman
    博客: http://mypostmormonlife.blogspot.com/

  52. 我只想再次重申,我对贝克姐妹有多伟大’的谈话。再说一次’引导我的生活更快乐,更神圣的状态的强大影响力。世界的吸引力是如此之大。撒但喜欢分散我们最重要的角色,他以这种狡猾和欺骗性的方式这样做。而且,这样做,他取得了一点胜利。撒旦之一 ’s greatest lies to women is that we can and we should be doing everything, and be everything, and 有 everything NOW. He would 有 有 us look at others, knowing that most often from our perspective it would seem that they 有 it all and are doing it all, thus putting the pressure on that we, too, can and should. But we know better! 那 is simply not true! We know that when we try to do it all, something suffers,(this is true for everyone) and he knows that what will suffer is our homes and family. And so, he works fervantly day in and day out to get us to focus elsewhere. If the home suffers, the home breaks. If the home breaks, society breaks and we are on the road to misery, 对 where he wants us. Our most important stewardship is our family, our children. And in 世界 today, we just can’不要冒险让撒但参与进来。我们必须加固我们的房屋。站在上议院的男人和女人都知道这是真的,并将牺牲所有的注意力来保护自己的家庭和家庭。一世’我非常感激不断提醒人们最重要的事情,在这个计划中我的角色,以及我能做些什么来帮助主和站在他身边的人,一次又一次赢得这场这场自从世界开始之前就开始肆虐。从正确的角度来看,鉴于永生的希望,世界的魅力,分心和吸引力在减弱…纯洁的快乐,幸福和幸福的生活,我们在这里都在为此而奋斗。

    Thanks to 贝克姐妹 and all of our Leaders, whom the Lord has chosen to guide us in our jouney here back to our Heavenly Home. My heart is full of gratitude to the Lord and for these men and women, these watchmen on the tower, who are fighting so dilligently for the welfare of our souls.

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