评论 46

  1. 那么,我们是否应该期望几天后对此政策进行其他修订?不要试图听起来刺耳或冒犯任何人’在这件事上,我真的不知道’认为他们知道他们到底是什么’re doing…

    1. 或者..也许他们超级聪明。 Ť’都是旧的诱饵,然后切换。.一切都安定下来之后,TB摩门教徒如此生气” relieved it’不是WORSE,而是TBM’进一步挖掘。我现在可以听到“Why are 您 upset still, they fixed it?” Nope, didn’对我来说还不够。

  2. ok…。让我说清楚。京东谈论“oxymorons”这里。因此,我们有另一个教会的牧师对摩门教的内部政策感到愤怒。然后,由OW的主任作为小组成员,用她的话说,他们是一位忠实,值得的摩门教徒妇女(但显然不能忍受当前的LDS领导…。好!)。然后是另一个几乎没有说话的家伙。约翰– I’m a fan and long-time listener but 您r podcasts are getting so predictable. Just a bunch of folks who agree with 您 now. I am looking for more…let’摇一摇,有一些相反的观点’在讨论中。没有争执,但考虑周到的不同观点。

    1. 在约翰’s 防御…我们知道他与活跃的人保持联系“members”…So, why can’t apologists or active 成员 discuss anything on John’s podcasts? Because they would face church court and/or losing their temple recommends for associating with known 背道者 .

    2. 公平地讲,教会已经为所有代表教会的人提供了保险,以确保没有人会与可怕的人交往。“apostate”. So, if 您 think it should be otherwise 您 might address 您r concerns 到 church.

  3. 它没有’不管使徒中的一个或11个不同意对手册的这些更改,这些文件和声明均以全部十二个主席和第一任主席的名义出版。这是冒烟。

  4. 当我第一次听说“clarification,”我很高兴上帝本周终于正确了。或至少是正确的。谁知道添加手册1会引起这样的麻烦?看来不是上帝。

    詹姆士’ “defense”教会的困扰我。总计“Don’伙计们,不要太着急。 LDS,Inc.不是 ’他们一定是恶意的,’只是掩盖他们的公司资产,确保他们的各种风险和实体’由于他们的教会政策和惯例而不必要地遭受诉讼。”这是数百年来人们用旧线拧紧别人的电话线的延伸,“Hey, it’s not personal, it’s just business. 您 understand.” 的assumption being that whatever is done in honor of the Almighty Dollar is OK and excusable as long as it was done for purely fiscal reasons without particular malice toward anyone. 詹姆士 seemed to be telling us not to worry, if Mormon LGBT families get run over by a bus, the driver may simply have been wearing a different hat that day. When he explained that the policy changes were simply legal maneuvering probably written by lawyers right out of tort law textbooks and thus completely understandable, the air seemed to just go out of the discussion. There was sort of a collective, “Oh.”


    1. 您 didn’t hear it in his tone, but 詹姆士 is very much against the church’s policy. He was just talking as if he was a church lawyer in that situation. If 您 listen closely, he is actually against the church on this, and he even stated that he is looking for people to press lawsuits against BYU on their discrimination. When the other panelists (myself included) were also coldly discussing his points, our collective ‘oh’本着同样的精神。出于任何原因,包括将其归咎于法律争执,我们都无法接受该政策。但是,对于我们所有人来说,似乎有些‘same old, same old’.
      In the end, 我不’t know if legal issues were a primary motivation, nor if the legal issues 詹姆士 mentioned are their primary concern. 我不’不知道使徒如何做出这些决定。我们都只是在猜测为什么这些人(看起来他们应该是个好人)会做出如此可怕,具有破坏性和不像基督的东西,因此容易接受任何可能解释它的理论。

      1. Whatever 您 were doing during the podcast was very, very distracting, rude and inattentive. It sounded like 您 were making dinner at the same time and really couldn’不会被谈话打扰。

        1. 音频中的声音问题是我的错,我也应该做得更好,因为我也做播客…但我是一个躁动不安的人,只能在我走路时说话。我也选择了错误的耳机。

        2. 对…我使用了错误的耳机,并且我说话时保持步调(我是一个躁动不安的人)。我应该更了解,因为我过去曾播客。抱歉

  5. Most 成员 do view Policy and organizational decision make process as a prophetic process in the LDS Church and I believe that this misconception is purposefully taught in the Church. I can count how many times I have sat in Church listening 到 lessons about how every choice in picking a person for a calling is divinely influenced by god, and that the Church will never ask anything of 您 that god is not god will and that god will always provide a way for 您 to do what the LDS Church ask of 您 and that 您 will be eternal blessed for it.

  6. 几天前我的建议是“Leave! Get out of this church as fast as 您 can!”丹尼尔还是说服了我。 (就像埃里克·里夫斯一样。)我不会指责任何离开的家庭,以最大程度地减少对孩子的伤害,但与此同时,我现在也相信那些对此问题持强烈态度的人应该留下来战斗。



  7. I’我是非摩门教徒,他偶尔会看到我的朋友发布到Facebook的此播客链接。多年来,我’ve heard a lot of stuff here that seemed kinda archaic for the 2010s, but hey, every culture is different. Still, my jaw dropped when 詹姆士 talked about his son’主教告诉他的丈夫,他将无法“guarantee his safety” at a church event. Seriously?!?! In 2015, a church leader in the USA is basically implying a lynching should a gay man and his 您ng son show up to an event?

    I’m speechless.

    1. 亲“ps”主教没有说私刑,我相信这很可能是想到孩子口头互相骚扰的可怕方式。主教可以随时随地出现,因此他不能停止可能发表的所有残酷言论。当然,主教会出于任何原因停止对任何人的私刑。
      我不’t know what I heard from the church but 让s not get so carried away that we stretch the truth. 的truth is bad enough.

  8. 的background noise in this podcast was REALLY distracting. Please tell 您r future panel 成员 to push the mute button if they are going to be filling up water bottles or stuff like that. In addition, they should use some sort of headset rather then a speaker phone, which I am assuming they were using, because the audio kept going loud then quiet then loud.


  9. Great discussion, thank 您.


    1. 该数字是根据我与犹他州经常处理此问题的当地专家的对话估算得出的。我们没有被允许收集硬数据,因此不可能提供确切的数字。我只是想指出,如果我们将所有可以避免的LGBT摩门教徒自杀事件的死亡加起来,那就超过30。如果加上几年,整个教会(而不只是犹他州)这个数字很容易超过那次事件在巴黎死亡的129人。我要指出的是,我们对我们周围发生的悲剧是有看法的,我们对此不予理ignore。

  10. l’m glad that we are trying to bring up difficult issues in the church, we need to face and discuss more church history issues and understand the ideas and reasoning behind them, polygamy and other hard issues so we can all perhaps begin to understand why these things happened and how the revelations came about and discuss more, jon, 您 are doing a really great job helping all kinds of people everywhere, god bless 您 in all 您r endevours,

    1. Absolute truth –– 是, those who believe absurdities will commit atrocities.

      1. “。 。 。那些相信荒谬会犯下暴行的人。”

        男孩,阿因’t that the truth. (Oh, yeah, I guess 您 said it was . . .)

  11. 许多有趣的评论。然而,“刚离开教堂”对于不是’活跃成员,但很多人— including 您th —真正相信福音是通往永生的道路。我相信有很多忠实的同性恋者&已被排斥在外的女同性恋者,但他们希望教会为他们的孩子们祝福。换句话说,新政策给比此处建议的人数更多的人带来痛苦。

    另一个想法:标记同性恋& lesbians “apostates”将其移至问题7,以进行圣殿推荐。如果忠实的直属成员与男同性恋,女同性恋者,LGBT倡导团体或对LGBT人士的同情有任何联系,现在必须回答“Yes” —导致可能被排除在圣殿之外。

  12. 当然可以’现在是时候让LDS社区中的自由派基督徒(无论是否辞职)研究CofC所提供的服务。至少那些仍然珍视其修复遗产的人。不知道为什么约翰’斯蒂芬·韦阿齐(Steven Veazey)的访谈尚未进入播客状态:我认为这与眼前的问题非常相关。警告:不幸的是,我’我不是基督徒,所以我个人不会加入。

  13. 很棒的讨论!我真的很喜欢所有小组成员。丹尼尔’关于在政策影响到异性子女之前,社区不会被激怒的评论非常刺耳。所有这些“we love 您 and 您r children, BUT…”就像玛格丽特·托斯科诺(Margaret Toscono)’完美的隐喻或存在“被护理熊强奸”. I’m so glad I left the church and do nOt have to do any mental gymnastics anymore to make it work. Good riddance! 您 should do a mormon story on Daniel Parkinson. We stood with each other at the ordain women movement, and i thought he was such an amazing man. I would love to hear his life story as well as the other panelists 您 have not yet interviewed. A really bright group.

  14. 最后!!我支持詹姆斯参加下一个十二空缺!!!除了心烦意乱之外,胃痛和“well I’n不在了..我不’不在乎,但对于某些人,我在乎” the only guy makin’理智是詹姆斯。他明确解释说,所有人都有接受和拒绝的风险。他自己说如果你’在HIS情况下重返教会………you’re better off and so is 您r family. He said clearly that THERE IS NO CHANGE but only a risk assessment exercise and policy implementation [ultimately bungled by the Snowdens of this world]………。这里真的没有惊喜……..詹姆斯像其他律师一样,对他的陈述非常谨慎,并涵盖了他的第六名。’的播客。一段时间以来,我一直在想剧变,而在LGBT问题上来回激怒。约翰在播客中说,犹他州的人口比LGBT青少年的美国其他人口有一定的优势。他确实指出,鉴于这种情况,教会正在尽职调查。他根据消除一夫多妻制问题以及教会责任所采取的步骤相同地比较了尽职调查。这对我来说更有意义“I don’觉得很好”。据吉娜(Gina)说,约翰与他人合着了犹他州最大的LGBT精神问题评估报告。这个统计数字听起来像约翰吗?……….never heard 您 mention that, so far.

    1. Clarification: 詹姆士 stated that Utah has a significant deviation in teen LGBT issues. John Delin has co-authored the largest study in LGBT mental health issues in Utah. 的question is: Is 詹姆士 statement accurate in John’s experience John?

    1. I am not sure what 您 are refering to exactly, but 1978 was the year the church changed its policy on Priesthood ban for blacks. At the time at BYU they were doing electro-aversion therapy to try to cure homosexuality which was very damaging 到 participants.

  15. 喜欢Daniel在第586集中间所说的话,因此,我想分享一周前新闻传出时从TBM亲戚那里收到的一封电子邮件的一部分:
    “Homosexuality is not an OK way to live. And it has consequences. Little ones like having 您r kids jump through hoops to make sure the ‘lifestyle’ didn’t screw them up permanently. Bigger consequences like an epidemic to call 您r own or a hailstorm of fire and brimstone just over 您r little city. (No doubt the media thought these were harsh punishments.) But God calls people home all the time for all sorts of reasons. (And apparently it is really hard to leave behind a life of being gay, because He cuts short the life of many a gay –不是他讨厌他们!没有!他一直爱着他们,但他发现他们在浪费这次的生命测试,并给自己带来了更多的谴责。善良的事情是带他们回家。) ”


    1. Wow, so sorry 您 have to deal with that kind of attitude from family. It has been said that perhaps a believer never does more disservice to religion than to support the truth with bad arguments. 的listener spots the obvious errors, becomes impatient, often “带浴缸把婴儿扔出去”甚至远离真正的宗教

  16. I am interested in 詹姆士’ suggestion that the motivation behind all this is for legal reasons was to keep the Church from being sued by homosexual parents for creating conflict between them and their children. If this was their reason, haven’t they just eliminated any benefits they get from this policy by their new “clarification”? If the policy, as newly clarified, was what was intended all along, what legal benefits did this policy ever provide for them? It seems they are no “better-off”现在要比整个变革之前要多。

    1. 编址“what took so long…..” This year I ended a 13 year marriage due to spousal abuse on her part towards the children and I. When it is done very slowly 您 never really noticed it until someone who was an outsider said LEAVE. When I was gone and took time away from her I saw what so many were scared to tell me. I was horrified that I would stand for that for so long. What is sad is the our bishop did nothing as well and he saw it as well.

  17. 感谢播客的参与者。我作为异性恋活跃的LDS庙宇已婚成员,对新教会政策,其修订以及两个公共事务解释都存在重大关切。该政策似乎与标准的教会教义和先例不一致。要求参加一个人的宗教测验’支持同性婚姻和对一个人的考验’愿意拒绝接受父母选择的关系承诺,并进行一项测试,该测试涉及某人因父母的行为而希望受洗的18岁以下居民,并且不需要其他视角成员进行这三项测试中的任何一项希望联合教会是不合逻辑,不公平和前后矛盾的。此外,这些测试中的每一个不仅与透视成员遵守教会所确认的教义或诫命的意图无关,这可能是评估洗礼的有效依据。这些测试似乎违反了代理和个人责任的原则,而不是对其他行为负责。测试/条件似乎使家庭分裂,并促进而不是防止冲突。禁令和随后的考验是不必要的,因为教会已经有了一项规定,要求父母同意接受洗礼。公共事务使用的语言是指责,没有承认该政策的问题或如何传播该问题。观点表明,性交滥交不需要强制性的纪律处分或具有叛教资格,但同性婚姻却需要。有人可能会争辩说,参加同性婚姻表示有意继续同性性行为“transgressions”因此,尽管有意图,但对一夫一妻制的合法婚姻的承诺却带有叛教的标签,而滥交和其他严重犯罪却没有,这仍然很奇怪。最后一位发言人让我非常感动’鼓励积极的成员考虑从原则上退出教会,考虑继续参与以保留为LGBT青少年所需要的宽容声音。我尊重他对那些辞职和留下的人的支持的声明。它似乎是平衡,理解,尊重和同情的。我对这些事件的反应可能有所不同。我很高兴听到这样的观点,即法律问题可能是新政策制定的一部分。这种潜在的观点是我可以理解的第一个解释,这可能促使了这种政策。


  18. I work in public education.. I am the Dean of Students at a very large high school. 的school has over 2000 students. 的institution of public education, the demanding expectations that it brings and the requirement it demands that is students fall in line with the status quo causes many suicides every year. How many of 您 have blood on 您r hands because 您 support and pay taxes to an educational system does that does not fit the needs of every student and ultimately causes the death by suicide of thousands of kids a year?

  19. 教堂’s current message to LDS homosexuals seems to be, “If 您 can’t be celibate, please go away, and if 您 have children, take them with 您 until they turn 18, so they will not be confused by hearing one thing at home and another at church. Beware that if they attend, they will feel isolated and stigmatized when they are not eligible for baptism at 8 like everyone else is, and the boys cannot advance through the priesthood from age 12 to 18 as other boys do. Keep in mind that if they want to return and be a member of the church at age 18, they will have to move out from under 您r roof and denounce what 您 do in the privacy of 您r own bedroom.”

    I find it extremely troubling that the general church 成员hip would not have known about this new policy if it had not been leaked 到 media. If 您 are signed on with the church, I think it should be 您r right to know the fine print in the contract.


    在他的媒体采访中,使徒托德·克里斯托弗森(Apostle Todd Christofferson)发表声明说,这里没有精神控制。那似乎是出乎意料的。不管他说什么理由,我都必须有所不同。与大多数宗教一样,施加很多恐惧,内以及家庭和同伴的压力对获得个人的服从性有很大帮助。决定留在教堂还是要外出活动是要为一个积极,自信的同性恋者感到痛苦。他需要摆脱教会的束缚,才能找到一个支持小组,在那里他可以真正感到平等,被接受,整体,对自己好,并可以成为他的真实身份。然而这样做,他有太多损失。教会主宰了他的生活,并成为他身份的重要组成部分。它已经完全融入了他的家庭生活,成为他的精神寄托,社交网络和支持社区。然而,成年后仍需要一个未婚,独身生活,这与他一生中关于婚姻和家庭的教导正好相反,这是摩门教生活和来世的主要目标。


  20. 得知这项政策变更后,我决定全力以赴,开始研究和学习。我了解到,父亲在一个教会中抚养我,最终我永远不会接受我,只会容忍我。 5年前我不活跃并公开成为同性恋之后,我回到了教堂。从那时到去年,我在精神上取得了进步,并热爱成为教会的一份子。我什至得到了长老法定人数老师的召唤。那是自1997年传教以来我第一次打电话。我爱我的病房和主教的支持。我专心致志,尽力成为好会员,天父希望我成为。然后,我的主教被释放,我个人的地狱始于新的主教。



    我的困境是:如果教会是真实的,那对我有什么帮助?如果这是一个大谎言,我现在应该去哪里?一世’我从16岁起就成为会员’m now 40. 我不’什么都不知道对我来说,与天父建立并继续与我的关系很重要。简单地停止祈祷并假装他不在,是我不愿探索的后果。

    As I told one of my sisters, 您r acceptance and spiritual welfare is determined by the bishop that is over 您. I had a great bishop for 5 years. Within one year, I lost everything, including my testimony and my 100% certainty in what I believed in.

    1. 嗨,特里斯坦,

      您’故事真的打动了我。我想我们差不多年龄了。我希望你’失去房屋后,情况会更好。我大约8年前离开教堂。自从离开以后,我的生活变得非常愉快。我知道教会教会我们将价值观转化为接受病房和领导才能。对我来说,一旦我意识到自己给了别人多少权力,并明白我没有’t owe my life– or any debt–对于这个人的社区(尽管他们的意图很不错),我发现放手比较容易。在决定自己的价值时,我找到了深切的平安。我对你对天父的感受非常认同。我对天上的车床和基督的观念是一个深深的神圣,最好的朋友,一直在我身边。我越了解同情和智慧的本质,我就知道如果有一个仁慈的神,他或她将拥有比我想象的更多的智慧和爱心。教会描绘的上帝的品格是部族的,嫉妒的和缺乏远见的。如果教会由如此深厚的爱和智慧的上帝所领导,它将带领世界以爱与善的方式爆发。当您经历此阶段时,向心中的上帝祈祷–您所知道的一个爱和接受您的人就在您的角落。唐’不要让任何人告诉你上帝对他对你的爱有条件。世界需要你。您是同性恋且LDS长大的事实意味着您对世界具有至关重要的独特看法,这将帮助我们其他人了解我们的文化正在经历的巨大变化的本质。我们需要像您这样的勇敢的人,他们可以表达您的内心,勇气和洞察力。感谢您分享您的感受。希望您早日找到和平。兄弟,我真的很希望你。

  21. 我对这里带来的故事和关注感到震惊。对我来说,这是LDS教会的活跃,异性恋,顺式性别,已婚成员的最新动态,在这个上周日举行的自政策变更以来的首次快速见证会议中,我感到良心不安,不得不站出来并分享一份关于对我的病房家庭的信任,希望和关心。我在许多修复教学中讲述了教会的历史以及信仰和灵感的感受,然后与最近的政策变更分享了我的担忧和异议,我认为这对LGBTQ个人,夫妇和儿童有不公平的伤害。父母是LGBTQ。我说过,我认为这些政策与信仰的第二条以及教会和耶稣基督的其他经典教义不一致。我说,我的良心要求我在这个时候大声说出来,我希望我的后代知道我确实有勇气为教会公平对待LGBTQ个人和儿童发言。我希望在关于D中规定的关系的永恒性质的法律的进一步承诺中表示希望&C 132:66。我将陈述的书面副本交给了在会的主席国第二位顾问,并总结说,如果教会能够容忍像我这样的人根据他的良心发言,那么我将继续参与其中,并希望能为LGBTQ的教会成员提供支持。我的洗礼圣约要求我与那些需要安慰的人一起早上和安慰那些早晨,并安慰那些需要像基督一样举止基督的人,也许这可能是我的重点。


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